Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The cultural component would be the masculine/feminine component, that's the only culture I've been exposed to.
Even though I've been completely independent for the past 10 years, and pump my own gas and do my own car maintenance, and all the other extra crap that's supposed to be the 'man's' job-- one wasnt there. Then there's no choice.
I don't see cleaning the toilet as being a man's job- but if there is a man in the picture then it's nice when he does the things that are more physically involved --like mowing the lawn and taking care of the cars.
I wanted to get two new snow tires this weekend, but my SO said: "I'm in charge of the cars!" and although at first I felt a slight resistance to this, it's nice to have somebody want to take care of me sometimes. Cultural, historical, biological, instinctual, it just is. I don't have anything to prove, I do what makes me happy.
Also, as Metaphysique mentioned, there is a love language called "Acts of Service" that is important to some and not to others. For someone with this love language, if the man does things whether it's cleaning a toilet or taking out the trash, pumping the gas or mowing the lawn, that feels like a token of affection and it's counted as a loving gesture.
For some of us, Acts of Service is not a high priority love language and so these are just things that SOMEBODY has to do, so you you negotiate who's doing it, or you just do it, or they just do it, and it gets done and no one cares. It simply is not a big deal. I do the dishes not because it is a woman's job to do the dishes, but because I enjoy my little methodical routines, I have a way I like the dishes done and put away, and I've learned it's better to just do it myself, than to expect my housemates to do it my way just because I said so. If I want the towels folded precisely like so, then I should go ahead and do that myself. We have FOUR toilets in our place. I clean mine and the powder room, my sons clean the one they share, and my boyfriend cleans his.
He expresses to me that he appreciates how clean I keep our home. I don't need special recognition for every little thing, but it is nice to feel in the greater sense that he appreciates me and doesn't take me for granted. In some areas of our relationship, he gives a great deal more than he gets, and I express my gratitude and appreciation of him, too.
I am a Words of Affirmation kinda gal. So while some people might be like, "But you should know I love you, and why I love you, and I don't get that you need to hear it even though I've said it before...are you insecure, or what?" that simply won't work for me. The guy who never says it, but shows it by giving me expensive gifts...is not going to be in a relationship with me for very long. That's why the whole "love languages" concept does make some sense.
But we've drifted somewhat from the realm of opening doors on a date, to taking on certain tasks when in a relationship. Again, to me, those little gestures on a date are just a way of saying, "See, I am thinking of you, wanting to show you that I have good manners and give you courtesy." It's stuff you do when you're trying to be on your good behavior to make a good impression. It's nice...I neither demand it, nor get offended by it. I don't know what kind of person DOES get offended by nice gestures...probably someone who grew up near DC and gets an attitude about all sorts of casual friendliness. As a teenager I literally used to say, "Don't tell me to have a nice day if you don't know me, and you don't actually care what kind of a day I have." Yeah...now, I see that as insufferably obnoxious. East coast keepin' it real? Or keepin' it rude? No, thanks.
Even if some things are done out of out-moded tradition, so what?
They still imply that someone wants to do something for you that THEY think is courteous and respectful and demonstrates care and concern.
( As long as it isn't just a put-on , temporary 'good behavior' ruse.
Christmas decorating , Halloween parties, a Thanksgiving turkey and candy give outs are traditions that have no real modern applications but millions still do them.
And if you appreciate them, fine. If you take a stance against their useful meaning? Well.........
It would appear that CBeisbol is trying to make someone admit that doing nice, considerate caring things are sexist simply because they are based in out-dated behaviours when men "protected" the more supposedly delicate female sex
Even if some things are done out of out-moded tradition, so what?
They still imply that someone wants to do something for you that THEY think is courteous and respectful and demonstrates care and concern.
( As long as it isn't just a put-on , temporary 'good behavior' ruse.
Christmas decorating , Halloween parties, a Thanksgiving turkey and candy give outs are traditions that have no real modern applications but millions still do them.
And if you appreciate them, fine. If you take a stance against their useful meaning? Well.........
It would appear that CBeisbol is trying to make someone admit that doing nice, considerate caring things are sexist simply because they are based in out-dated behaviours when men "protected" the more supposedly delicate female sex
I kind of see his point in that, if we say "men are SUPPOSED to do this and that" then it's kind of sexist.
Like I'm not on board with judging a man negatively if he doesn't:
- open the car or house door for me
- pull out my chair at the table
- pump my gas
- take out the trash
etc.
I can do those things. It's not a big deal if I do those things.
You can appreciate such gestures, without acting as though you are entitled to some sort of royal treatment because of being the female in a male/female date situation.
By "old school" I mean things such as opening the car door for you, opening the door when entering a place, pulling your chair, etc.?
It seems as if for a lot of young women today those are seen as outdated or even sexist things to do.Not all women mind you, of course. I was raised and believed to do such things and did so for my now wife and she has always enjoyed them. Not all times at every occasion mind you, but say we are having a date night or going somewhere fancy. Depends on the venue and the circumstances. While I am willing to "adapt" if a woman doesn't like it or view them as offensive I really don't like it when they are mean about it. Before I met my wife I went on a date with a woman that, when we were walking up to the restaurant for our date I kind of lunged forward and opened the door and she yelled out "What the hell are you doing??" when I explained she said "That's some old sexist stuff, I am fully capable of opening the damn door!". She was not pleased to say the least. Obviously didn't stick around with her for long but for other reasons.
This is generally true but it deserves an explanation and a suggestion for everyone else.
First, you should ask women to honestly asses whether doing any of those given actions have any real effect on a man's attraction if he they are indifferent or even less inclined to like him based on other things (too passive, less attractive in terms of looks than they set their "date bar" in their head, etc).
I have previously argued that the "old school manners" that you say are a crook. Women may feel good about themselves but it plays no role at all. If she doesn't like you or is indifferent it won't change a thing. This especially applies to paying for a date, driving her home (unless you try to "score"), etc.
As a matter of fact, vast, overwhelmingly vast majority of women interprets those actions with this thought in their minds - that you're trying to "gain a foothold" in certain areas. And thus it is even more likely to have no effect or even a negative effect than it is to give you any meaningful "bonus points".
However, there's a thing I want to discuss about this part where "young women see it as outdated and sexist", and so on. Well, thisi s a common scenario that we discussed, but it's much more about the feeling that they don't want to give you a chance at all and if they voice stuff like this - they are also arrogant towards you and want to bury you into the ground so that you "know your place".
Tough luck, no everyone is pleasant and there are many people who turn very nasty in various ways. But it's definitely NOT that they'd act the same towards everyone. A common example is if an old man gives a compliment to a woman or rushes to open the door and she wants to "shoot him down" even if he didn't want to move more from being a flirt at best. On the other hand, a different man, usually the one that this same woman likes - will be entitled to do things that are very crass and she'll still be eager to consider to date him. In fact, she might be calling him in order to get sure he calls her on another meeting with her, her friends, or at her home.
This is how the general American audience behaves and I can describe similar pattern among men.
It's a lot different when people can honestly asses what they really want and pursue and when they don't feel pressured to lie in order to avoid being seen as shallow. There are plenty of men who claim they are looking for a woman who is xyz and then they simply conform to the stereotype and, in fact, they don't want the women they said they are looking for because these women are plain or don't match real criteria that they put the most emphasis.
I know it might look confusing, so I hope you'll read this and get the point - it's not about actions themselves, it's about the wider context and the fact that people's preferences are often in dissonance with their official stances.
Thus I would suggest it everyone that they question themselves on what they really want and what things are of critical importance to them. It cannot be true that they abandon their critical factors for things that are "also important" (like major importance) and these factors usually happen to be based on looks for both men and women. Other factors also play a role and it's also incredible to see just how many people really do hate money.... yet they are impressed what money can do and what kind of perspectives it can create, thus they want those things for themselves and especially their children.
A general notion is that there are some general pluses and minuses and you should just make sure that those general pluses aren't interpreted as "sour grapes" for other people... or at least for the people that you want to date.
When I was single, I liked the guy paying for the date.
But have been with hubs so long, women paying was fairly new.
We are talking baby boomers here - One girl friend thought she was being nice, clever, what ever by insisting she paid. But she tended to date Alpha Males who didn't like it. In fact one said to a group of us friends, what is up with her and paying.
She is 64 and still single.
Some guys feel its their thing to pay. Husband was one of them. Once we were on a trip (after months of dating) and I said I'd buy dinner. He said OK but told me later that wasn't expected. He was picking up the tab cause that is what he does. He said you broke my records of NEVER having a woman pay for my meal. It was how he was raised and tradition at the time. He married me so it all worked out.
I have no experience with younger generations dating rituals except that my boomer friends who have 'cubs' get stuck with paying for everything. Yes some would call them cougars. I just say they have 'cubs'. I like these 'cubs,' we are friends now and they are pretty entertaining.
Agree with nald that if a woman doesn't like you, then opening the door or doing nice gestures will not get you "points."
Also, if the only reason you are nice to me is that you hope to get points and that I'll be willing to be with you, even if I don't like anything else about you...like "Well, he looks and smells homeless, but gosh he opened the door for me, so off go the panties!" that is not gonna work. You do have to be more than just basically nice. For some people looks or money might work. For me, you have to be smart, mature, wise, and frankly just a little bit sadistic, among other things. Different people, different priorities.
Oh, and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nald
I know it might look confusing, so I hope you'll read this and get the point
...if a man has a condescending attitude, no amount of door opening, chair pulling, or lawn mowing will get him anywhere with me, or with most women.
Quote:
It cannot be true that they abandon their critical factors for things that are "also important" (like major importance) and these factors usually happen to be based on looks for both men and women. Other factors also play a role...
Were women supposed to abandon all critical thinking and swoon because a dude pulled a chair out from the table at a restaurant on the first date? Just...lol...what?
.........
With regard to who pays.
I have known exactly one woman who was on online dating for the single purpose of getting men to buy her meals. She was a drug addict. I did not like her.
When I was dating, I always offered to split the bill and pay for my own food, it was truly no big deal. Sometimes a man would let me pay my own way, and sometimes he would insist on paying. It made no difference as to whether he got laid or got a second date or anything of the sort. I have also, after getting to know a man and knowing that he had financial difficulties and I did not, paid for HIS meal on dates, or once when I had money to burn and wanted to eat at a nice place, and I specifically contacted a guy, asked him out, and offered to pay. I'd just gotten a bonus at work or something, I can't recall...point is, if I suggested a pricey restaurant, I will be prepared to pay for us both. And about the only time I care if a man pays and prefer that he does, is if he suggests a pricey place. I don't think it is good manners to put someone in the position of having to say, "my budget is tight until payday and I can't really do the steak place right now...can we go to the ol' bar & grill instead please?" If you wanna eat at the Chez Ritz FruFru then be prepared to pay, I figure.
So with all of this, I really wish guys would look at it more as a matter of manners and etiquette, rather than "what works to win the game and get the girl." Because, clumsily stated or not, nald is correct that if she doesn't want you, she doesn't want you, and none of this will change her mind.
However, if she is a "maybe leaning toward yes" already, bad behavior could make it a "no" and good behavior could make it a "yes."
Just be nice to people, not to try and game them and get what you want, but just because it's nice. If that offends them, then they're stupid and you dodged a bullet. But it's not likely that it will.
I have known exactly one woman who was on online dating for the single purpose of getting men to buy her meals. She was a drug addict. I did not like her.
When I was dating, I always offered to split the bill and pay for my own food, it was truly no big deal. Sometimes a man would let me pay my own way, and sometimes he would insist on paying. It made no difference as to whether he got laid or got a second date or anything of the sort. I have also, after getting to know a man and knowing that he had financial difficulties and I did not, paid for HIS meal on dates, or once when I had money to burn and wanted to eat at a nice place, and I specifically contacted a guy, asked him out, and offered to pay. I'd just gotten a bonus at work or something, I can't recall...point is, if I suggested a pricey restaurant, I will be prepared to pay for us both. And about the only time I care if a man pays and prefer that he does, is if he suggests a pricey place. I don't think it is good manners to put someone in the position of having to say, "my budget is tight until payday and I can't really do the steak place right now...can we go to the ol' bar & grill instead please?" If you wanna eat at the Chez Ritz FruFru then be prepared to pay, I figure.
So with all of this, I really wish guys would look at it more as a matter of manners and etiquette, rather than "what works to win the game and get the girl." Because, clumsily stated or not, nald is correct that if she doesn't want you, she doesn't want you, and none of this will change her mind.
However, if she is a "maybe leaning toward yes" already, bad behavior could make it a "no" and good behavior could make it a "yes."
Just be nice to people, not to try and game them and get what you want, but just because it's nice. If that offends them, then they're stupid and you dodged a bullet. But it's not likely that it will.
That thing about bad behavior goes both ways.
I typically like to pay if I've done the inviting. I don't mind offering to split, or pay, if she did the inviting, but I also try to recognize when a woman wants to pay, as well as why.
I've had a couple of women become downright belligerent about paying, and not because I pressed the matter; rather, because they just went this route.
Those were taken as signals that this wasn't considered a date, which was fine. I've no need to date anyone that on-edge about something like social graces and courtesies.
It's funny, but with regard to paying it's never crossed my mind that any woman "owed" me because I paid for a meal or an outing. That's just dumb. It would be like serving me with alimony papers because we made out once.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes some would call them cougars. I just say they have 'cubs'.
I like these 'cubs,' we are friends now and they are pretty entertaining. 
