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This thread is a wonderful example of women refusing to even entertain the idea of imagining what the male experience is. I've long thought most women are actually incapable or just unwilling to understand the male experience.
It’s not that at all. Let me ask you, at what point is empathy enough? What are women supposed to do? I mean, I’m in a relationship, I can’t go on pity dates and I have to “reject” any advances by men otherwise I will be cheating. I’m as kind as I can be about it, but I can’t make other women act a certain way any more than you can. So what are the women on this forum supposed to do when some posters here, month after month, year after year, post the same problems with no evidence of ever having taken anyone’s advice? How much empathy are people entitled to? Are they entitled to it? Why?
I have empathy and I listen. But aside from that there is nothing else I can do. And, again, when those who come for empathy lash out at me, my gender, my race, my religion..z why do I still need to give that empathy? At what point am I allowed to write someone off as a hater? And at what point should someone take personal responsibility for their own life and stop making their problems other people’s problems?
Last edited by BellaLind; 02-02-2018 at 07:53 AM..
It’s not that at all. Let me ask you, at what point is empathy enough? What are women supposed to do? I mean, I’m in a relationship, I can’t go on pity dates and I have to “reject” any advances by men otherwise I will be cheating. I’m as kind as I can be about it, but I can’t make other women act a certain way any more than you can. So what are the women on this forum supposed to do when some posters here, month after month, year after year, post the same problems with no evidence of ever having taken anyone’s advice? How much empathy are people entitled to? Are they entitled to it? Why?
I have empathy and I listen. But aside from that there is nothing else I can do. And, again, when those who come for empathy lash out at me, my gender, my race, my religion..z why do I still need to give that empathy? At what point am I allowed to write someone off as a hater?
That's not my point. And I would expect posters who constantly come for pity parties to no longer get any sympathy.
My point is that any sort of discussion that highlights any sort of struggle men go through in dating, even from not so often grumblers, is met with such vitriol (or the immediate "WELL WOMEN TOOOOO! We don"t need to discuss this because women too and reasons") that you wonder if it's even possible for women to grasp what is being said, or if they just ignorantly see men as a whole having such great lives that they refuse to actually empathize with the male experience.
In most spaces, if you say anything remotely negative at all about women in general, or about your experiences in dating, whether you are successful with women or not, you are immediately labeled bitter, misogynist, insecure, whiner, the list goes on forever.
From the JUMP on this thread, the whole idea of discussing the topic of women seeing things from a male perspective was mocked and shut down immediately.
Hell, I bet you I'll get called a whiner by one of CDs finest in this very thread just for having this discussion.
That's not my point. And I would expect posters who constantly come for pity parties to no longer get any sympathy.
My point is that any sort of discussion that highlights any sort of struggle men go through in dating, even from not so often grumblers, is met with such vitriol (or the immediate "WELL WOMEN TOOOOO! We don"t need to discuss this because women too and reasons") that you wonder if it's even possible for women to grasp what is being said, or if they just ignorantly see men as a whole having such great lives that they refuse to actually empathize with the male experience.
In most spaces, if you say anything remotely negative at all about women in general, or about your experiences in dating, whether you are successful with women or not, you are immediately labeled bitter, misogynist, insecure, whiner, the list goes on forever.
From the JUMP on this thread, the whole idea of discussing the topic of women seeing things from a male perspective was mocked and shut down immediately.
Hell, I bet you I'll get called a whiner by one of CDs finest in this very thread just for having this discussion.
Well, I would say if people are hostile to you or unhelpful, just ignore them. Some people are that way and there is nothing you can do. It does you no good to let them get under your skin.
I think, in a lot of cases, the whole “women too†or “me too†thing is an attempt at empathy. I was invisible and unpopular in high school for example. So when a younger guy chimes in with his bad luck, I say “that was me too†to show that I understand what it’s like. Then I usually chime in with what I did to make things better for myself. A lot of times, that’s ignored though. So I tend to feel less inclined to help later on.
Also, one should say anything negative about “women†or “men.†That’s just stereotypes. People would get a lot better response from other posters if they qualified what women. For example, there is a world of difference between the statements, “women are horrible and use men†and “the women I’ve dated are horrible and used me.†The former is basically trolling and the later is more of a call for help. The latter also usually gets more positive responses.
Yes...I tried to state this some ways back but didn't put it as succinctly as you did. She's not QUITE a man no matter how much she tries to "act like" one. She has no experience BEING one. It's kind of like when men try to act like women and their voices just aren't quite right and everything is exaggerated...you can just tell. I am SURE these women were picking up on something being "off" there.
Oh, yes. I definitely would pick up on something being off.
Man has bad experiences. Rejection, failed relationships, etc. Has bad feelings. Comes here to complain.
His reaction is, "I am seriously angry (maybe really hurt, but angry is the default setting) and it's women's fault. You're all monsters. I have feelings and need to lash out!"
We try to empathize with his suffering, give advice that could improve his situation, but ultimately...much like when a woman says, "Stop trying to fix my problems!" he really just needs to be allowed to have his feelings, and heard, and is using this as a space to vent.
The problem with this is...when these same posters are using this board as their own personal vent space for negative feelings, while doing zip to change their situation, but just having a wallow, for like a decade or more...it does get kinda tiresome.
Especially when letting you angry dudes have your feelings is basically sitting here being punching bags, taking your accusations and abuse. You claim feminists do that, but in fact YOU ARE DOING THAT. Funny, my boyfriend likes to say, "That which you criticize most in other people, is that which you hate in yourself but are unwilling to confront." It's projection, is what it is. You perceive even the kindest of rejections as painful, and therefore assume it's some sort of an attack and then you lash out at the whole gender as being your enemy.
And then there are a few who are frankly just trolls here to get people upset. For any reason or none, it's a Monty Python "Argument Clinic" situation. Whatever motivates that, I don't even know.
But I also see a lot of dudes here who are so obsessed with trying to unlock a secret formula, or defend their own formulas, that define in the most absolute terms, How All This Works. It's in every time someone cites stats or studies. And it's silly. You're just trying to control chaos, and you can't. If people were in fact following some most advantageous evolutionary strategy for breeding the best of the best babies to better the human race, we wouldn't be sliding towards Idiocracy right now. People don't follow algorithms, not like that, and you cannot impose control on it or hack it or any of that, to guarantee success where you've been having failure, or to justify why your plight is hopeless. Sorry, but there aren't any absolute rules you can use to control other people, or justify why you cannot control yourself. The only truth is that you have power over yourself and no one else. It all comes back to that. I know it's hard, and so much easier to throw an angry tantrum and yell at others, but at the end of the day, the truth remains and the truth doesn't care how you feel about it.
And no woman owes you empathy, when you come at her with your anger. We might choose to give it or not, and on the balance I think women demonstrate a lot more empathy for guys, than guys do for us. Most male empathy I've seen is just a desire to either understand women so you can control your own relating to them and get what you want, or a flimsy manipulative attempt to connect with one particular woman so you can get what you want. There are notable exceptions, I know a lot of great guys...but they're not generally the ones carrying on in places like this.
By the by? As a woman, the point in my life where I was really suffering, coming here and talking about it was a HUGE mistake. I got maybe like 2 posters showing empathy, and the rest taking potshots at me while I was vulnerable, telling me I deserved abuse and being angry that I didn't jump to follow advice they gave. And the men here complaining that we women don't understand, would be the LAST to show an ounce of empathy to a woman having a hard time.
Funny. A woman not giving you all the love and comfort and mommying and sex and snuggles and happiness you crave, is a greater crime in the eyes of many a man, than another man violently abusing a woman. The same guys who will bend themselves into a pretzel to let a man who abuses women off the hook, demand that women give him positive interactions, or else they earned his hate and vitriol. Just because he's on "team penis." The internet, and to some lesser degree, the world, is full of this mentality. Before you "screech" about feminists, and how it's so unfair that women are against men, maybe examine what you, yourself put out there. I mean, if we're treating the genders as monolithic entities (ridiculous) and saying one ought to have more empathy for the other.
This thread is a wonderful example of women refusing to even entertain the idea of imagining what the male experience is. I've long thought most women are actually incapable or just unwilling to understand the male experience.
Because they honestly dont care about male suffering or challenges that men face. Neither do men, really. Notice, any women in favor of mens rights or anything surrounding these topics, are those who now have sons or husbands who have to pay a huge chunk of their paycheck to an ex. In other words, they only notice, when it directly effects them or those closest to them. But I think this is the way its meant to be, because naturally women are supposed to focus on themselves and their children.
Not to mention the insane bee hive mentality, powered by decades of feminism, where anything feminine or related to a woman need to be defended, explained and obsolved of any responsibility. Look at female teachers sleeping with multiple minor male students and how public responds to that in comparison with a vice versa scenario? Look at prison sentences being 65% lesser for exact same crimes, look at how anytime there is a murder committed by a woman there are 1000s ready defenders ready to explain that she obviously is a pooor sick victim of something or other, and thats why she did. Its called misandry to be precise.
To me, the OP's experience is NOT the typical man's experience.
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Because they honestly dont care about male suffering or challenges that men face. Neither do men, really. Notice, any women in favor of mens rights or anything surrounding these topics, are those who now have sons or husbands who have to pay a huge chunk of their paycheck to an ex. In other words, they only notice, when it directly effects them or those closest to them. But I think this is the way its meant to be, because naturally women are supposed to focus on themselves and their children.
Not to be adversarial, but do you care about women suffering or the challenges they face? Based on your posts here I imagine your response to a woman discussing sexual harassment would be that it's men's nature to be predatory and vocal about his sexual needs. Are you a vocal advocate of women's rights? I doubt it.
Frankly, all people have challenges and suffer, but at the end of the day we all only have so much emotional labor to give. Everyone, men and women, direct those efforts into spaces that we have control over and affect us directly.
Last edited by fleetiebelle; 02-02-2018 at 10:32 AM..
Not to be adversarial, but do you care about women suffering or the challenges they face? Based on your posts here I imagine your response to a woman discussing sexual harassment would be that it's men's nature to be predatory and vocal about his sexual needs. Are you a vocal advocate of women's rights? I doubt it.
Frankly, all people have challenges and suffer, but at the end of the day we all only have so much emotional labor to give. Everyone, men and women, direct those efforts into spaces that we have control over.
I am absolutely in favor of womens rights as much as Im for mens rights. The point is, you dont really care about men suffering, you only care about yourself, because men are and always have been disposable in this society. If you were willing to be honest with yourself, you would see it in instances like evacuating women and children first or men sent to war to die, so they can vote. But you ignore it and pretend like your burden is heaviest. Wake up.
I am absolutely in favor of womens rights as much as Im for mens rights. The point is, you dont really care about men suffering, you only care about yourself, because men are and always have been disposable in this society. If you were willing to be honest with yourself, you would see it in instances like evacuating women and children first or men sent to war to die, so they can vote. But you ignore it and pretend like your burden is heaviest. Wake up.
Why fault women for decisions made by men? Women wanted to enlist, men said no. Plus, women can fight now. Don't you think it is a stretch to bring up history (male created history) to support the OP's lack of dating success?
Fleet never said EITHER gender has a heavier burden, because she is reasonable and sees both sides.
I find that those here who understand simple truths, and have empathy (for both) really have no trouble with relationships. It's those with "theories" that have the trouble.
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