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Old 08-28-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: South Fla
1,044 posts, read 1,845,691 times
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Both parents are alcoholics, as well as several uncles, some are in recovery, others are not. I didn't touch any alcohol until I was 22, before then I was just too scared that I would turn into one of them, now, I feel comfortable having a drink or two, but I have never been drunk and I don't intend on it. Like Sandy, I am a control freak also and the thought of not knowing what I am doing is terrifying to me.

Yes, we sober people can clearly tell when the drinker turns from funny to sad, but they cannot. I have found that most alcoholics are pretty shy people who feel sort of uncomfortable in their own skin, drinking makes them feel more sociable and funny, and they are the only ones who don't see how damaging their behavior is to friendships.

I am a little unsure about the genetic thing, I would think that if that were true I would have become an addict the first time I had a sip of wine cooler, but that hasn't happened.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:38 PM
 
Location: SUNNY AZ
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my family is from italy and I've never known any of them to be alcoholics. They have a drink each night usually after dinner that they call a "chinchin" don't ask lol. Anyway~ I think a lot of it has to do with what they were brought up with......thier parents and aunts and uncles never drank excessivly (well except for christmas but that's a whole nother thread) so they grew up observing that and they do exactly what thier parents showed them was okay. They also weren't very well off as in Italy you are either rich or not rich....they were not....so they did not own a TV.....this generation on the other hand....yea, there's a few of my cousins who i'd say have a problem but I really think it's because of what they've been exposed to.....anyway....just IMO
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:59 PM
 
Location: "The Sunshine State"
4,334 posts, read 12,931,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
I've never been around alcoholics, that I know of, until I got into my early 30s. Coming from a European family that had one glass of wine (my parents, not me) with dinner, it was available (even to me) but I never got into it. I always had a Coke or a Sprite. Still do.

So, the upon arriving in the Pacific NW, 3 of my friends are (were) alcoholics. Two in Portland and one in Seattle. Of course, they were in denial about that "label." With the ones in Portland, the friendship eventually ended, taking over 5 years for that to occur. With the one in Seattle, he was a co-worker, so we had that in common. With the Portlanders, what they didn't realize is that their drinking made them worse. Both of them were actually smart, analytical and witty when sober and just plain embarassing 'effin dolts when they drank. I was friends with them for the "smart, analytical and witty" part. I've had to have them stop being served while I was sitting there drinking a Coke. Boy, did they get p*ssed.

Since I wasn't too exposed to this stuff, it really puts me out. One friend told me that these people were drawn to me because I didn't drink. I found that weird since I would think they would like to find drinking buddies. One of them even told me "I don't trust people who don't drink." Have you, as a non-user or "take it or leave it" consumer, had friends who had problems with alcohol and what did you do about it?

A couple of other observations/questions:
(1) Why is it that the countries that produce and consume the most wine (primarily in the Mediterranean), on a per capita basis, have the lowest alcoholism rates, per capita?
(2) Don't alcoholics who are really smart and interesting people know they turn into morons (or belligerant a-holes) when they drink?
(3) Why is this a disease? Let me explain why I ask. If a young person who has this supposed predisposition and genetic makeup, and has never sampled alcohol, is hypothetically shipwrecked "a la Gilligan's Island" and there is plenty to eat (say there is game to kill, fruits and vegetables, which can be eaten or juiced) but NO ALCOHOL, they would have no disease because there would be no cravings, no withdrawals and no physical symptons. In short, it's not a disease, it's an addiction. Gambling addictions, drug addictions and sexual addictions are called addictions, not diseases. What's up with this?

Let's keep it civil. Please discuss.
They call everything a Disease today. It is a much kinder description. I disagree, all these people who drink, gamble, whatever...they are Addicts. It does not come from a Disease at all. They have what is called an Addictive Personality and so did most likely one or both parents! I have been around it. I know one who is addiicted to alcohol, caffiene, niccotine, even down to their everday activities. They are very robotic people also....very rarely do they change their HABITS. I know of someone who is addicted to MOVIES on tv and will watch the same movie over and over and over. Being a non adidictive personality, it is very hard to be around it. Only because it is so abnormal and these people have no lives and do not care about the lives of others. They just drag you down. Personally I think anyone with any addiction has a definative personality flaw of some kind...I have seen it!
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: The 719
16,063 posts, read 24,597,838 times
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You have no clue what an alcoholic is then.

An alcoholic is one who cannot;

A) control the amount of alcohol they drink once they start, and

B) can't stay stopped based on what's right, moral, healthy, necessary, etc.

They have a physical craving for more of the same once the craving develops which occurs only in alcoholics and once stopped, they have a mental obsession that they can control it this time, regardless of the suffering and humiliation of even a few days ago.

Call it a disease or don't. But it's definitely not an addiciton. That's your own definition.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Orlando
8,177 posts, read 17,454,018 times
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I'm inclined to believe it's genetic disease.

I'm a wife of an alcoholic. His whole family suffers(?) from it too but my husband is the only one that acknowledges it.

I've drank my share over the years but never felt the NEED to have it whereas an alcoholic does. They don't see how their drunken actions affect those around them.
While he was sober, I told my husband to pick it or me. He picked me and has been sober for 13 years.
He now sees why I don't want to spend a whole lot of time with his side of the family and hates the thought that he acted like this too.

I don't mind being around people who drink, I just hate being around drunks.
Big difference.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: In a chartreuse microbus
3,865 posts, read 5,784,042 times
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From what I've studied, alcoholism is not a disease. For that to happen, alcohol has to be an integral, natural occurring substance within the body at birth.

Why alcoholism is not a disease. [Med J Aust. 1992] - PubMed Result

Shouldn't we treat alcoholism as a disease?
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:29 PM
 
3,124 posts, read 4,577,406 times
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Only an alcoholic can understand the lies and trickery the diease employs to get you to have "just one drink". The lies are slick and our culture makes it even harder. It's not a craving like one has when one is hungry. You don't actually feel the craving. You don't want to be intoxicated, you know the damage it does to your life and those who love you. The next day when you are waking up you can't believe you got drunk and you make your vows to not drink again. Then, a few days later you suddenly find yourself drunk. It made perfect sense when you took that first drink, then of course, once you've taken that first drink you are powerless (literally powerless) to stop yourself from having another..and another..and another...until you are waking up the next day and vowing to never drink again...



FYI -- it's called a disease, because unlike most narcotics and other drugs you have to be biologically predisposed to it
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:56 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 50,226,053 times
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Here's the thing. A lot of behavioral health specialists don't think it's a disease at all. Alcoholism is not a Disease

And even if it were truly a disease, then why don't we treat it as a disease, rather than herd its supposed victims into some pseudo-psychological, religious program like AA, a program with abysmal results?

AA doesn't release its success rates for a reason: It doesn't work. Some investigative journalists found some internal surveys finding that AA provides a 'recovery' rate of 5%, while people who don't go through any program at all have an identical 'recovery' rate.

What gives with that? If alcoholism is truly a disease, then you should seek medical treatment for it, not some Svengali who makes you talk about your weakness in front of a room full of strangers. I mean, if I had cancer, I would go to an oncologist, not babble nonstop about my life. If I had eczema, I would see a dermatologist, not talk about how powerless I am without God or some other metaphysical presence. If I had arthritis, I wouldn't go apologizing to all the people in my life whom I inconvenienced.

In short, I think alcoholism and drug addiction and gambling addictions are human weaknesses, not diseases.
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:34 PM
 
Location: "The Sunshine State"
4,334 posts, read 12,931,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Here's the thing. A lot of behavioral health specialists don't think it's a disease at all. Alcoholism is not a Disease

And even if it were truly a disease, then why don't we treat it as a disease, rather than herd its supposed victims into some pseudo-psychological, religious program like AA, a program with abysmal results?

AA doesn't release its success rates for a reason: It doesn't work. Some investigative journalists found some internal surveys finding that AA provides a 'recovery' rate of 5%, while people who don't go through any program at all have an identical 'recovery' rate.

What gives with that? If alcoholism is truly a disease, then you should seek medical treatment for it, not some Svengali who makes you talk about your weakness in front of a room full of strangers. I mean, if I had cancer, I would go to an oncologist, not babble nonstop about my life. If I had eczema, I would see a dermatologist, not talk about how powerless I am without God or some other metaphysical presence. If I had arthritis, I wouldn't go apologizing to all the people in my life whom I inconvenienced.

In short, I think alcoholism and drug addiction and gambling addictions are human weaknesses, not diseases.
I agree! Calling it a disease is just another excuse! I see Alcoholism as a definative Personality flaw. Most alcoholics cannot face most situations without a drink or being drunk, whether it be a family get together or just plain old being with friends or strangers! This is why a high percentage of alcoholics are reclusive! Just my opinion and what I have learned.
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:54 PM
 
Location: The 719
16,063 posts, read 24,597,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali's Grandma View Post
I'm inclined to believe it's genetic disease.

I'm a wife of an alcoholic. His whole family suffers(?) from it too but my husband is the only one that acknowledges it.

I've drank my share over the years but never felt the NEED to have it whereas an alcoholic does. They don't see how their drunken actions affect those around them.
While he was sober, I told my husband to pick it or me. He picked me and has been sober for 13 years.
He now sees why I don't want to spend a whole lot of time with his side of the family and hates the thought that he acted like this too.

I don't mind being around people who drink, I just hate being around drunks.
Big difference.
It's great that your husband was able to quit abruptly for you, but by the very definition of the alcoholic, either he hasn't crossed the line and wasn't an alcoholic, but was a hard drinker who still had the power to quit or moderate.

Let's say he really is an alcoholic who could "white knuckle it" for you; he would be a very rare individual indeed.

As far as AA not working, that's bull. It's the most successful solution for alcoholics in the world. Unfortunately, judges across this land send everybody to AA. If you're a sex offender, you've got to take drug and alcohol tests to prove that you're sober and clean; oh, and they send you to AA. If you go to a treatment center, once you're done with the in-patient treatment, they send you to AA. Even during the inpatient treatment, part of the care is AA. This is because it does work.

The sad fact of the 5% recovery is due to a dummying down of what an alky is; it's not a person who gets a DUI, "Loses things" or has "problems in life and copes by taking drugs and alcohol." AA is for alcoholics.

Back between 1935 till at least 1939, they had a 75% recovery rate. Half of the people got it with no relapse. Half of the people who didn't get it the first go-around, got it after some relapse, never to drink again. Of the 25% who couldn't stay sober, some died and some at least improved their lives somewhat.

To go to AA doesn't gaurantee that those are really alkies and that those that are will get it right away. Most meetings nowadays are so watered down that all you get is a bunch of oldtimers that once did steps and now live on their "war stories". "Back when I was drinkin', life was terrible. Then I got sober and it's lollypops and b-jobs." Or "Just keep coming back." or "Put the plug in the jug" or "just say 'NO!". None of this has anything to do with recovery. Doing all 12 steps does.

There are a couple of groups in Denver Colorado that are VERY successful. It's not a life for everybody either. They "qualify you" and find out if you want to quit for good and all. None of this "day at a time" crap. If you say "yes" and "yes", you're shown how do to the steps, held accountable, and if you succeed, you stay "IN" and show others how it's done.

You do that and get free of the booze and are shown how to recreate your life, and why the heck WOULDN'T you want to stay sober? It Does freaking work!!!!!!!!!! And you do steps each and every year! The 30 year sober people get their boots on and the gloves on and they go to work, side by side with the new man. There ain't no messin' around.

If you were a cancer survivor, wouldn't you like to get with other cancer survivors once a week and rap, or would you rather go talk to some shrink about your feelings? I don't think so.
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