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Old 08-31-2008, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie621 View Post
They call everything a Disease today. It is a much kinder description. I disagree, all these people who drink, gamble, whatever...they are Addicts. It does not come from a Disease at all. They have what is called an Addictive Personality and so did most likely one or both parents! I have been around it. I know one who is addiicted to alcohol, caffiene, niccotine, even down to their everday activities. They are very robotic people also....very rarely do they change their HABITS. I know of someone who is addicted to MOVIES on tv and will watch the same movie over and over and over. Being a non adidictive personality, it is very hard to be around it. Only because it is so abnormal and these people have no lives and do not care about the lives of others. They just drag you down. Personally I think anyone with any addiction has a definative personality flaw of some kind...I have seen it!
You sound like an untreated al anon.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:13 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,388 posts, read 33,184,958 times
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Interesting questions. I'm going to go with custom. If the custom of your country is a glass of wine with dinner you're probably going to have a glass of wine with dinner. Here, custom is hitting the bar after work on Friday. There's no social protocol for moderation. If you grow up, as a drinker, practicing moderation, that's what you'll do. If wine is a dinner drink, then you'll have a glass with dinner. Here, alcohol is a party drink and used to unwind and destress not a garnishment with dinner. The views of alcohol are totally different between the mediteranian and here.

Love the second question. My husband stopped drinking last year (is now trying to moderate, ugh) and still doesn't realize just how hard he was to live with when he was drinking daily. We nearly divorced last year and, to this day, he gets upset if he talks about the custody battle. He blames my lawyer for hitting hard on the drinking but that was all me. He doesn't get how difficult he was to live with or why I was willing to go to great lengths to prevent my kids from having to deal with that without benefit of a sober adult in the house to mediate. They don't get what jerks they become. If they did. They wouldn't drink. Waching my husband over the years cured me of ever wanting another one.

Our counselor explained that drinkers have euphoric recall. They remember only the initial buzz and keep drinking trying to recapture it only you only get that initial buzz initially. Get a few down, and they don't have a clue what asses they become. They can't figure out why we're angry with them the next morning. All they remember is that feel good buzz they had about half way through the first one. I don't get it but I don't pickle my brain on a daily basis either.

I don't believe it is a disease. It's a choice. You choose to abuse then become addicted. Addiction, itself is disease like but you don't get addicted if you never let it get out of control. Both of my parents had drinking problems. I drink rarely usually on social occaisions like weddings and then only one or two. I figure if I never let it get out of control, I'll never have a problem. I refuse to use alcohol to self medicate. When you get to the point you're saying "I need a beer", it's time to stop.

People are dumb and think they will never be the one to get addicted.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-31-2008 at 03:26 AM..
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:22 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,388 posts, read 33,184,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
You have no clue what an alcoholic is then.

An alcoholic is one who cannot;

A) control the amount of alcohol they drink once they start, and

B) can't stay stopped based on what's right, moral, healthy, necessary, etc.

They have a physical craving for more of the same once the craving develops which occurs only in alcoholics and once stopped, they have a mental obsession that they can control it this time, regardless of the suffering and humiliation of even a few days ago.

Call it a disease or don't. But it's definitely not an addiciton. That's your own definition.
Actually, an alcoholic, is someone tho drinks regularly. Many can and do control the amount so they can function in society. They're called functional alcholics. They hold down jobs, pay their mortgage and crawl into a bottle every night or tie one on every weekend (you can be an alcoholic but go days without drinking). My husband still does not consider himself an alcoholic becuase he never got drunk and could stop IF he wanted to (he just didn't want to). He just came home and drank most of a six pack every single night. In his mind, because he got up for work the next morning, he was fine. He did stop drinking because it was the only way I'd drop the divorce and he was about to lose his kids as my lawyer did a great job of showing that daily drinking does make one a an alcoholic but he considers me to be the one with the problem not him. One problem with alcohol abuse is that it affects thinking both when drinking and when not. If you drink often enough, your brain doesn't return to a normal sober state in between. The same sick thought processes you have while drinking become your normal way of thinking. I swear it took my husband 12 weeks of not drinking to actually sober up. I was told this was not unusual. He drank 3-6 beers a day BTW. Hardly what most would call an alcoholic but he was/is one. It did affect his thinking even when "sober" (called dry drunk syndrome).

I believe the definition is more than 14 drinks a week if you're a young man and more than 7 a week if you're old (as we age, it takes less to have the same effect because our bodies become less efficient at clearing the toxins from our system) but to be honest, I'd call anyone who NEEDS ONE a day an alcoholic. If you need it, you've got a problem even if you've got that problem under control....for the time being...

The definition of an alcoholic really is anyone who needs it in any amount. If you NEED a drink at the end of the day when you get home, you are one even if you keep it to one. It's the needing it part not the amount you consume. I'd also add in the being oblivious to the fact it really doesn't improve things for you too.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-31-2008 at 03:36 AM..
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Oxford, OH
1,461 posts, read 3,448,518 times
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Many other countries us wine as a beverage. Somehow in this country we use it to get high and cover up feelings, or make us feel loose. I came from a non-drinking family and have rarely in my life had a drink. I'm not really anit if people can control themselves.
My older brother -S-started drinking in college and could not stop. My grandfather drank and who knows if those genes were passed on to S. He was in out of treatment center and it was a strain on the whole family who had a hard time understanding. Although we all got educated quickly. He was doing better at almost 40 and died in his apartment of a stroke. Probably caused from the lack of taking care of himself. So sad since he was so creative and bright...it was such a waste.
My dad owned several companies and had a policy of not providing any drinks. When he went to a party and people would say, "G don't you drink????" He would answer, "I think it is unintelligent" well that would quiet them...
I think it is a personal choice but you are responsible for your actions later!!!
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Location: The 719
16,094 posts, read 24,700,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsavvy View Post
You sound like an untreated al anon.
The Alanon creede; he took a drink and I felt better.

I don't care if people think it's a disease or not. Alcohol is a choice; for the non-alcoholic hard drinker, the moderate drinker, the social drinker, and the teetotaler.

Alcholics have lost the power of choice in drink. That's part of the very definition of being an alcoholic. Alcholics are typically very non-stupid. Infact, some have amazing talents. Alcoholics are very equally represented amongst our society. There are doctors, lawyers, priests rabbis ministers and all sorts of other clergy members, scientists, artists, politicians, etc., that are afflicted. It's not a matter of intelligence and it's not a matter of morale character. If that were the case, the alky would have been able to think their way into better living or pray there ass out of their current situation many times over.

The alcoholic has a perfect genious for building the structure over them and securing the families confidence just to tear it all down again and the worst possible moment. Alcoholics have lost the power of choice in drink. In recovery, there are only two choices for the alcoholic and that's the last choice they have to make; God or Booze. That's it. Accept spiritual help (which really ain't too easy for most alkies) or go down to the bitter end, drowning out their meager existance as best they can.

Alkies aren't those bums sitting under a bridge. That IS a choice. A bum has accepted their life. Those folks may just really be in a rut. But they like that rut. They like their lack of responsibility and they're just doin' fine. The alcoholic knows things don't add up. They want a better life; the best life that their will and their life can take them too. They know how to lift themselves up when things are down. Unfortunately, many of their hopes and dreams were probably perceived while intoxicated. Look at what they are truly worshipping. Spirits. Alcohol. Breath of Life.

When the alcoholic arises from a binge or a blackout, they go through the The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They arise in terror and bewilderment on how it's happened again. Despite their best efforts to control and manage their drinking, they fail. To swear off alcohol only to get drunk and violent despite their best efforts at control, then the next day...they seek it yet again. They do everything in their power to reconcile...to ammend...to apologize...to beg for forgiveness. Then that forgiveness is granted. But eventually...

The alcoholic has three fates; death, incarceration, or insanity. The very few that recover from those fates is truly a miracle.

You know, there must truly be a God. And for some reason, God has some purpose for some of these alcoholics... the 10% that don't die off. God curses some of us with the ability to seek out and try to rescue some of these alcoholics or they may have long-since died off of the face of this planet. They are your alanons. But why do these poor innocent victims deserve this fate? Is it about rescue? No, it's about control. It's a disease as sick if not sicker than the former.

You psycho-babbling experts out there ought to take up a hobby like knitting. This disease is much too tedious and entrenched for the faint of heart.

To IvoryTickler: I'm pretty well versed on what an alcoholic is myself. Within the alcoholic, there's 5 accepted stages of the alcoholic. But the hard drinker looks very much like the alcoholic. They like to get drunk. They may be a continuous hard-drinker. They may even get a DUI or die before their time. But given a sufficient reason (going to prison, dying due to failed health, warning of a doctor, spouse, loss of job wife children home etc, they can either STOP or MODERATE their drinking. If they can't stop or moderate, they're probably the real deal.

There's a test to see if you're an alcoholic.

First, try to stop abruptly for a year all on your own power. If you're an alcoholic, you probably can't do this. Now that covers the mental obsession part.

Second, here's a tougher one that would test the physical craving part. The Marty Mann test. That's two drinks, no more-no less, every night for 30 days straight. If you can pull that off, you're probably not an alcoholic.

The non-alky would think that's too much. The hard drinker would probably think it's not enough, but could perhaps do it, to prove a point. The drinks have to be ordinary drinks too. Not a huge drink with lots of alcohol. Just your ordinary drink; be it a beer, a glass of wine, a mixed drink with a shot or two of booze. My drink of choice wouldn't even fit the description. For me that would be 4 parts bourbon, 1 part coke and 1 or 2 icecubes. And keep em' comin'.

For the real alcoholic, there ain't no test. When you propose that test to them, they know there ain't gonna be no test. But as that Book says, it would be worth a bad case of the gitters to find out for sure. That's on page 31 in case you were wondering.

Last edited by McGowdog; 08-31-2008 at 05:44 AM.. Reason: add
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:38 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,388 posts, read 33,184,958 times
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If alcohol is a disease, how do you catch it?

Sorry, I don't buy the disease argument. That only exists to absolve alcoholics of responsibilty for their own actions. It's the equivalent of "The devil made me do it".

The fact is, if you never take a drink, you never become an alcholic. It's a choice not a disease. BTW both of my parents were considered alcoholics and I have several aunts and uncles and cousins who are considered alcoholics. There are zero alcholics in my immediate family. Most of us choose not to drink. We see no point. Because we don't drink or drink very little, none of us are alcoholics. I'm sure we have the genes for it. We choose not to activate them.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,388 posts, read 33,184,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodpoint View Post
Many other countries us wine as a beverage. Somehow in this country we use it to get high and cover up feelings, or make us feel loose. I came from a non-drinking family and have rarely in my life had a drink. I'm not really anit if people can control themselves.
My older brother -S-started drinking in college and could not stop. My grandfather drank and who knows if those genes were passed on to S. He was in out of treatment center and it was a strain on the whole family who had a hard time understanding. Although we all got educated quickly. He was doing better at almost 40 and died in his apartment of a stroke. Probably caused from the lack of taking care of himself. So sad since he was so creative and bright...it was such a waste.
My dad owned several companies and had a policy of not providing any drinks. When he went to a party and people would say, "G don't you drink????" He would answer, "I think it is unintelligent" well that would quiet them...
I think it is a personal choice but you are responsible for your actions later!!!
I wanted to agree n all counts. Alcohol is a recreational drug here. It should come as no surprise that we have a problem with abuse. If you drink with the intention of altering your mind state, don't be surprised if you alter it to the point you can't funciton anymore but don't call it a disease. You chose to drink too much and now your body has become dependent on the substance you chose to pour into it.

Sorry about your brother. People really need to accept alcohol as the drug it is and treat it like a drug. Our society pretends it isn't one. It's socially acceptable to the point it's over use is encouraged but when you keep pouring a drug into your system, you alter your system over time. I have no idea why any intelligent being would choose that.

I agree with your dad. It's unintelligent. For the life of me, I can't figure out why people want to drink on a regular basis. It desn't solve anything. You just pay a price later.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:54 AM
 
Location: The 719
16,094 posts, read 24,700,713 times
Reputation: 15092
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
The Alanon creede; he took a drink and I felt better.

I don't care if people think it's a disease or not. Alcohol is a choice; for the non-alcoholic hard drinker, the moderate drinker, the social drinker, and the teetotaler.

Alcholics have lost the power of choice in drink. That's part of the very definition of being an alcoholic. Alcholics are typically very non-stupid. Infact, some have amazing talents. Alcoholics are very equally represented amongst our society. There are doctors, lawyers, priests rabbis ministers and all sorts of other clergy members, scientists, artists, politicians, etc., that are afflicted. It's not a matter of intelligence and it's not a matter of morale character. If that were the case, the alky would have been able to think their way into better living or pray there ass out of their current situation many times over.

The alcoholic has a perfect genious for building the structure over them and securing the families confidence just to tear it all down again and the worst possible moment. Alcoholics have lost the power of choice in drink. In recovery, there are only two choices for the alcoholic and that's the last choice they have to make; God or Booze. That's it. Accept spiritual help (which really ain't too easy for most alkies) or go down to the bitter end, drowning out their meager existance as best they can.

Alkies aren't those bums sitting under a bridge. That IS a choice. A bum has accepted their life. Those folks may just really be in a rut. But they like that rut. They like their lack of responsibility and they're just doin' fine. The alcoholic knows things don't add up. They want a better life; the best life that their will and their life can take them to. They know how to lift themselves up when things are down. Unfortunately, many of their hopes and dreams were probably perceived while intoxicated. Look at what they are truly worshipping. Spirits. Alcohol. Breath of Life.

When the alcoholic arises from a binge or a blackout, they go through the The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They arise in terror and bewilderment on how it's happened again. Despite their best efforts to control and manage their drinking, they fail. To swear off alcohol only to get drunk and violent despite their best efforts at control, then the next day...they seek it yet again. They do everything in their power to reconcile...to ammend...to apologize...to beg for forgiveness. Then that forgiveness is granted. But eventually...

The alcoholic has three fates; death, incarceration, or insanity. The very few that recover from those fates is truly a miracle.

You know, there must truly be a God. And for some reason, God has some purpose for some of these alcoholics... the 10% that don't die off. God curses some of us with the ability to seek out and try to rescue some of these alcoholics or they may have long-since died off of the face of this planet. They are your alanons. But why do these poor innocent victims deserve this fate? Is it about rescue? No, it's about control. It's a disease as sick if not sicker than the former.

You psycho-babbling experts out there ought to take up a hobby like knitting. This disease is much too tedious and entrenched for the faint of heart.

To IvoryTickler: I'm pretty well versed on what an alcoholic is myself. Within the alcoholic, there's 5 accepted stages of the alcoholic. But the hard drinker looks very much like the alcoholic. They like to get drunk. They may be a continuous hard-drinker. They may even get a DUI or die before their time. But given a sufficient reason (going to prison, dying due to failed health, warning of a doctor, spouse, loss of job wife children home etc, they can either STOP or MODERATE their drinking. If they can't stop or moderate, they're probably the real deal.

There's a test to see if you're an alcoholic.

First, try to stop abruptly for a year all on your own power. If you're an alcoholic, you probably can't do this. Now that covers the mental obsession part.

Second, here's a tougher one that would test the physical craving part. The Marty Mann test. That's two drinks, no more-no less, every night for 30 days straight. If you can pull that off, you're probably not an alcoholic.

The non-alky would think that's too much. The hard drinker would probably think it's not enough, but could perhaps do it, to prove a point. The drinks have to be ordinary drinks too. Not a huge drink with lots of alcohol. Just your ordinary drink; be it a beer, a glass of wine, a mixed drink with a shot or two of booze. My drink of choice wouldn't even fit the description. For me that would be 4 parts bourbon, 1 part coke and 1 or 2 icecubes. And keep em' comin'.

For the real alcoholic, there ain't no test. When you propose that test to them, they know there ain't gonna be no test. But as that Book says, it would be worth a bad case of the gitters to find out for sure. That's on page 31 in case you were wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If alcohol is a disease, how do you catch it?

Sorry, I don't buy the disease argument. That only exists to absolve alcoholics of responsibilty for their own actions. It's the equivalent of "The devil made me do it".

The fact is, if you never take a drink, you never become an alcholic. It's a choice not a disease. BTW both of my parents were considered alcoholics and I have several aunts and uncles and cousins who are considered alcoholics. There are zero alcholics in my immediate family. Most of us choose not to drink. We see no point. Because we don't drink or drink very little, none of us are alcoholics. I'm sure we have the genes for it. We choose not to activate them.
I don't know about that. My wife worries about it. She can choose to not drink. But when she drinks two or more and starts to get a buzz, she gets scared and feels out of control and stops. I would feel really good and in control after two.

Like I say, there's teetotalers out there. They may be alkies in a dormant state. If they don't get drunk, that's great. My dad quit drinking about when I did almost 5 years ago. I treat my "disease". He grinds his teeth and has a purple head. I don't know how he does it on his own.

I only know how it works for me. As far as alkies wanting to avoid responsibility, duh! Doesn't everyone want to once in a while?

The alky ain't the one who termed it a disease. Neither did the fellows at Alcoholics Anonymous. The term Alcoholism is an industry that makes a lot of people a lot of money. It's as bunk as any corrupt organization on the planet. But AA can't do nothing about it, due to it's own traditions. They can't tell the world what to do and the world can't tell them what to do. A lot of that has to do with being self-supporting. That's the politics of the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTickler
I have no idea why any intelligent being would choose that.
That's the whole point. They've lost the power to choose. The more a person tries to cure the alky, the more they delay the inevidable. They perhaps deny the alky to hit a bottom for a time. Either way, you'll see. You'll see in the end that alcohol is a more powerful force than any human; even the untreated alanon.

Good luck with that. Keep up the good fight.

Last edited by McGowdog; 08-31-2008 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,388 posts, read 33,184,958 times
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"I don't know how he does it on his own"

If you do the research, you will find that all alcohol control programs, including none, have the same success rate. About 5%. Obviously, the ones for whom one works stick with it and the others leave. If I didn't know that, I would have been out the door the first time my husband took a drink. While I don't like moderation, I have to accept that it has the same success rate as abstinance or a 12 step program or just deciding to quit on your own with no program.

We'll see what happens in time.

Sorry, lack of control that leads to addiction is not a disease. It's just lack of control.

If drinking is a disease, so is smoking. I'm an ex smoker and I can tell you I had no disease. I abused a substance and became addicted to it. Period. You can become addicted to anything if you abuse it.

I agree on big business. Labeling alcohlism a disease allows for medical treatment paid for by medical insurance. BIG MONEY there. There is a stong incentive to call it a disease so they can cash in. Doesn't make it one though. However, there are so many health risks from drinking that insurance should pay for helping people break their addiction.

It's very easy to see it's not a disease. Diseases don't come under control because you practice substance avoidance. Diseases come under control with medical treatment and require continued medical treatment. I'm hypothyroid. There is no substance I can avoid to bring it under control. All my doctor can do is replace what my body cannot make because of my disease. There is no such analogy in alcohlism. No germ to kill, no missing substance to replace in the body. Just someone bending their elbow too much.

The fact people stop drinking without medical intervention shows it's not a disease. It's an issue of willpower. You have to find that where it works for you. If you know you lose control after one drink, don't have that first drink. Drinking isn't necessary. It's not a function we have to do to survive. Saying alcoholism is a disease is saying that we should be able to drink without drinking to excess. I have to ask why on that one. Using substances that alter our mind state just isn't necessary so it should come as no surprise that doing so has negative repercussions and those negatives don't make it a disease. They simply the result of putting things in our bodies that never belonged there in the first place.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-31-2008 at 06:18 AM..
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:35 AM
 
Location: The 719
16,094 posts, read 24,700,713 times
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You still don't understand what alcohol does in the alcoholics body compared to the non-alky.

Here's my difference between addiction and alcoholism. It's a proven fact.

The alcoholic does not metabolize alcohol the same way as 90% of the population. They are abnormal. Do you like that word better? There's no choice. It's a physical phenomena.

The normal drinker metabolizes the alcohol down to simple sugars. They do this at the rate of about an ounce per hour. It they stay within this limit, they don't get drunk.

The alcoholic does not metabolize all of the alcohol to simple sugars. They are left with the chemical Acetaldehyde or a form of acetone which is a known destroyer of the human tissue of the very organs that would metabolize the ethyl alcohol. In the alcoholic, this chemical destroys the liver and the other organs that break the alcohol down, thus creating a craving for more of the same.

THIS IS WHY THE ALCOHOLIC CRAVES MORE AFTER THE 15TH DRINK THAN AFTER THE SECOND!

This state never ever ever occurs in the normal temperate drinker!!!!!!!!!

DON'T CALL ALCOHOLISM A DISEASE IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY! CALL IT ABNORMAL IF YOU'D LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!

Alcohol and alcoholism has existed for about 7500 years, so if you'd like to add to the subject, that would be great. But keep in mind that temperance, reformers, and prohibitionists have failed miserably.

There are many underground closed AA meetings that have way over 50% recovery rate. They're the meetings most people wouldn't go to because it hurts theyw widdole feewings.
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