Alcoholics - have to shrug on this one (cheats, husbands, older)

[Ivorytickler]

Abnormal or not, drinking isn't necessary. You're talking about how the body metabolizes a poison. The solution is don't drink. That's not a medical cure. It's just personal control.

[McGowdog]

Just don't drink! Wow! That's it! That's the solution.

I'll see how that works. Or maybe not. I'm not willing to risk my life on it!

Thanks anyway. I'm sure it's good advice for some.

If you have a drinking problem and you don't want to quit, that's your problem.

If you have a drinking problem and can quit, that's great.

If you have a drinking problem and find you can't quit, there's still hope. That's my business. Let's talk.

[ellie]

Doesn't matter if it's a disease, a disorder, a personal weakness, whatever. If AA works, and I think it does, I'm all for it.

I've known too many problem drinkers. I have lots of friends in recovery. The ones in recovery are actively working at not drinking and supporting one another in that goal. Doesn't matter if it's a pseudo-religion or a true conviction. It is working for them.

There may be other solutions to alcoholism, but for the people who have found something that helps, more power to them.

[McGowdog]

Well, it does work. In fact, they have a chapter dedicated to it; How it Works. They have another wonderful chapter in there; There is a Solution; We Agnostics, Into Action...

It was written in 39' with 4 years of sobriety under their belts. It did work and it does work. Alcohol hasn't changed. Alkies haven't changed. The Solution hasn't changed.

Frothy Emotional Appeal seldom suffices...

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Well, it does work. In fact, they have a chapter dedicated to it; How it Works. They have another wonderful chapter in there; There is a Solution; We Agnostics, Into Action...

It was written in 39' with 4 years of sobriety under their belts. It did work and it does work. Alcohol hasn't changed. Alkies haven't changed. The Solution hasn't changed.

Frothy Emotional Appeal seldom suffices...

AA works as well as any other method out there. Statistically speaking, no matter what method they choose, including none, about 5% of drinkers will quit in a given year.

Honestly, the solution is to quit using alcohol as a recreational drug. We've romanticized it. It's a drug. If you stay off of drugs, you have zero chance of getting addicted.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Just don't drink! Wow! That's it! That's the solution.

I'll see how that works. Or maybe not. I'm not willing to risk my life on it!

Thanks anyway. I'm sure it's good advice for some.

If you have a drinking problem and you don't want to quit, that's your problem.

If you have a drinking problem and can quit, that's great.

If you have a drinking problem and find you can't quit, there's still hope. That's my business. Let's talk.

You're not willing to risk your life on not drinking? I take it you'd rather risk it on drinking then. Not drinking is the solution. If you dont' use, you can't abuse.

[McGowdog]

I'm not willing to risk my life on your non-solution. I've tried that stuff over and over again for 28 years. I'm different from you. That's that.

Go stand on the firing line. Go see the broken families, the battered wives and children, the doctors who's patients lie to them. Go tell them that they lack will-power.

Tell them that the solution is just a matter of just saying "No!" This problem and even drug addiction goes way beyond that. It's not just a matter of circumstances or ones external world.

Roy Tarpley of the Dallas Mavericks was offered 15 Million dollars if he could stay clean and sober. He couldn't. How's that for will-power? I'd say that's an awesome display of willpower.

Here's another display of willpower; Go eat a huge plate of Tex-Mex and then take some ex-lax and slam that down with a couple of cups of coffee. Then get onto the beltway or amongst some of the heaviest rush-hour traffic and try to drive up town. Now, that's will-power.

Frothy emotional appeal. That's all this is.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

If you dont' use, you can't abuse.

What? That's like telling a fish not to swim.

Men and women drink essentially because they like the effects produced by alcohol. For some, it's no problem. For some, it's fun. For some, it's nourishment and/or food. For some, it's the magic elixir of life. Let's keep the topic narrowed down a bit. Are we not focussing on the problem drinker only here?

For the alcoholic, it solves the "restless irritable discontent" feeling; after taking a few drinks which they see others take with impunity.

[Ivorytickler]

Doesn't matter. We're talking about drug use here. Not a normal body function to call abnormal or sick. We're talking about drug use and abuse. That's not a disease. It's, as you said, someone who likes the effect.

All of us have our issues we need to learn to live with. Restless irritable discontent describes my life. I'm not planning on crawling into a bottle any time soon. I find the more I deal with things, the easier they are to deal with. That restles, irritable, dicontent doesn't go away if you drink. It's just burried for a time. You fix nothing. To fix it, you must deal with it.

No, messing with your colon isn't will power. Avoidng drugs that are bad for you is. If you can't handle drinking, don't drink. Better yet, never start and you'll never have to worry about it. It's a choice not a disease.

[fierce_flawless]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Actually, an alcoholic, is someone tho drinks regularly. Many can and do control the amount so they can function in society. They're called functional alcholics. They hold down jobs, pay their mortgage and crawl into a bottle every night or tie one on every weekend (you can be an alcoholic but go days without drinking).
<SNIP>

I believe the definition is more than 14 drinks a week if you're a young man and more than 7 a week if you're old (as we age, it takes less to have the same effect because our bodies become less efficient at clearing the toxins from our system) but to be honest, I'd call anyone who NEEDS ONE a day an alcoholic. If you need it, you've got a problem even if you've got that problem under control....for the time being...

The definition of an alcoholic really is anyone who needs it in any amount. If you NEED a drink at the end of the day when you get home, you are one even if you keep it to one. It's the needing it part not the amount you consume. I'd also add in the being oblivious to the fact it really doesn't improve things for you too.

Many people in my life could not understand how my ex-husband was an alcoholic if sometimes he went weeks, even up to a month without drinking. He'd then binge for days. He never really drank daily but he still had a problem that caused him numerous jobs, vehicles, a DWI, financial problems, and yes, eventually led to him losing his family (me and the kids). Yet he could abstain for 3 weeks or longer.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

If alcohol is a disease, how do you catch it?

Sorry, I don't buy the disease argument. That only exists to absolve alcoholics of responsibilty for their own actions. It's the equivalent of "The devil made me do it".

The fact is, if you never take a drink, you never become an alcholic. It's a choice not a disease. BTW both of my parents were considered alcoholics and I have several aunts and uncles and cousins who are considered alcoholics. There are zero alcholics in my immediate family. Most of us choose not to drink. We see no point. Because we don't drink or drink very little, none of us are alcoholics. I'm sure we have the genes for it. We choose not to activate them.

My ex didn't drink at all until he was 22 and in college. Not a sip before that. He didn't have anyone in the family with a history of alcoholism (that he knew of). He didn't start out drinking regularly; he just drank at a couple of parties like a zillion college kids do every day. There was no drinking in his family aside from wine at holiday meals.

Now, me on the other hand... I have a known family history of alcoholism (parents, sibling, grandparents). I grew up with an alcoholic brother and father and a mom who, while not an alcoholic, did drink "too much" from time to time and drank at home, always had beer in the house, etc. You'd think *I* was the perfect candidate for a drinking problem, if we're going on the genetics theory. I started drinking at age 13 , and I was getting drunk every weekend for a while, when it was novel to me, and after that still fairly regularly. I never felt like I "needed" it, it was just something to do. When I found out I was pregnant at 19, it was no big deal at all for me to stop all drinking/drug activity... and it was never missed. On my 21st birthday I went out and had a couple drinks. Overall I drink maybe 3x a year, and even then it's light/social. I never crave it. I did various drugs as a teenager too, and never had any craving for any of them, never any problem not doing them. If it was there and someone else paid for it, I'd do it... if not, I was fine with that too.

I DO have a serious nicotine addiction. FWIW.

The thing is, both of us rolled the dice taking that first drink. My ex was not so lucky. I took the risk and came out okay. Who knows who will be forever struggling after that first drink and who will be able to take it or leave it? It's scary.

Originally Posted by McGowdog

<SNIP>

Roy Tarpley of the Dallas Mavericks was offered 15 Million dollars if he could stay clean and sober. He couldn't. How's that for will-power? I'd say that's an awesome display of willpower.

<SNIP>

Yeah, like I said... my ex gave it all up to the "other woman", alcohol. He knew it would happen, he knew he'd lose everything, still he drank. He's still drinking (we've been divorced almost six years)....

I have a brother who is in prison for reasons directly related to alcohol (and mental illness... )... he's lost it all time and again. He sacrificed his beautiful wife (high school sweetheart) and daughter. His firstborn is now 22 and won't speak to him, hasn't in decades. He has spent most of his life in and out of prison, and each time was connected to alcohol. He's basically offered up his entire LIFE to alcohol, despite his genius IQ, his incredible artistic talents, his charming and kind personality, his unbelievable potential.

[Ivorytickler]

I was very suprised to learn how long alcoholics can go without. It is not unusual for them to convince themselves they are not alcoholics because they can yet they can't make that decision to just stop for good.

My husband quit several times for a few weeks to prove to me he wasn't an alcoholic and then went right back to daily drinking. As far as he was concerned, he'd proven his point.

What amazed me was the realization that his drinking affected his thinking even when not drinking. I could rationalize that he was a jerk when drinking because of the drug in his system but not when he was sober. It took him 12 weeks to sober up enough to realize he'd really screwed up and, as predicted by our counselor, he became more and more sober of thought over the next year. It takes a year for the brain to recover as much as it will.

I'm saddened that he's decided to moderate but this is his demon to fight. I think he's playing with fire with is one drink once in a while. Proving to himself he doesn't have a problem like he's done for years. If he starts down the path he was on before, I'm outta here and the kids are going with me. He hates my lawyer.

It's a shame when people throw their lives away for drugs. So much potential lost for a buzz. What a waste.