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Ding ding, we have a winner!! It's a physiological response that makes one drink turn into a compulsion. I personally do not like the term "disease" myself as an AA.
As far as success rates go. 5% sounds like a whole lot better than 0%. And how exactly is the 5% being assessed? Are they measuring only the alcoholics who have died sober at old age ie = success? There are millions of recovering alcoholics worldwide staying sober each day. What % of success do you call that? Is it only success if I stay sober for life? Are alcoholics not allowed to relapse and then come back, perhaps staying sober for the rest of their days?
The bottom line is you cannot rate success or failure past staying sober today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
You still don't understand what alcohol does in the alcoholics body compared to the non-alky.
Here's my difference between addiction and alcoholism. It's a proven fact.
The alcoholic does not metabolize alcohol the same way as 90% of the population. They are abnormal. Do you like that word better? There's no choice. It's a physical phenomena.
The normal drinker metabolizes the alcohol down to simple sugars. They do this at the rate of about an ounce per hour. It they stay within this limit, they don't get drunk.
The alcoholic does not metabolize all of the alcohol to simple sugars. They are left with the chemical Acetaldehyde or a form of acetone which is a known destroyer of the human tissue of the very organs that would metabolize the ethyl alcohol. In the alcoholic, this chemical destroys the liver and the other organs that break the alcohol down, thus creating a craving for more of the same.
THIS IS WHY THE ALCOHOLIC CRAVES MORE AFTER THE 15TH DRINK THAN AFTER THE SECOND!
This state never ever ever occurs in the normal temperate drinker!!!!!!!!!
DON'T CALL ALCOHOLISM A DISEASE IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY! CALL IT ABNORMAL IF YOU'D LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!
Alcohol and alcoholism has existed for about 7500 years, so if you'd like to add to the subject, that would be great. But keep in mind that temperance, reformers, and prohibitionists have failed miserably.
There are many underground closed AA meetings that have way over 50% recovery rate. They're the meetings most people wouldn't go to because it hurts theyw widdole feewings.
Where are you getting your statistics/information? Or is this just your personal beliefs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
AA works as well as any other method out there. Statistically speaking, no matter what method they choose, including none, about 5% of drinkers will quit in a given year.
Honestly, the solution is to quit using alcohol as a recreational drug. We've romanticized it. It's a drug. If you stay off of drugs, you have zero chance of getting addicted.
I'm not willing to risk my life on your non-solution. I've tried that stuff over and over again for 28 years. I'm different from you. That's that.
Go stand on the firing line. Go see the broken families, the battered wives and children, the doctors who's patients lie to them. Go tell them that they lack will-power.
Tell them that the solution is just a matter of just saying "No!" This problem and even drug addiction goes way beyond that. It's not just a matter of circumstances or ones external world.
Roy Tarpley of the Dallas Mavericks was offered 15 Million dollars if he could stay clean and sober. He couldn't. How's that for will-power? I'd say that's an awesome display of willpower.
Here's another display of willpower; Go eat a huge plate of Tex-Mex and then take some ex-lax and slam that down with a couple of cups of coffee. Then get onto the beltway or amongst some of the heaviest rush-hour traffic and try to drive up town. Now, that's will-power.
Frothy emotional appeal. That's all this is.
What? That's like telling a fish not to swim.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effects produced by alcohol. For some, it's no problem. For some, it's fun. For some, it's nourishment and/or food. For some, it's the magic elixir of life. Let's keep the topic narrowed down a bit. Are we not focussing on the problem drinker only here?
For the alcoholic, it solves the "restless irritable discontent" feeling; after taking a few drinks which they see others take with impunity.
You're arguing with a person who I think is married to an alcoholic, who cheated on her and now wants to make things work. He's not in recovery...they will need our prayers and a miracle to make it work.
This topic is a hot one for me too, but some people are just not ready for the truth.
Ivorytickler, you will be in my thoughts and I hope you find the peace you deserve.
Even amongst alkies, they drink differently. Like I said, there's at least 5 distinct levels. They all have the ability to lie to themselves, thus others.
There's a chapter in that book called "To the Wives", although women can be alkies too. So some could read that as "To the Husbands." There's also a chapter, "To employers."
AA is not the only show in town. There are many avenues. You can go to the preacher and have him save your soul! But then your odds really suck. Then I think it becomes about 1 in 5,000,000. The way they do the stats from what I can tell is they find out how many 24 hour chips they give away in a year. Then they find out how many 1 year chips they give away. That's one way to get the 5%. But there again, how many that walk in the door are really alkies and ones that are done drinking, and how many are shown the truth?
We can argue until the cows come home what an alky is and what it isn't. What alcoholism is and what it isn't. If you find that you can't control the amount you take once you start and you can't stay stopped for long based on what's right and necessary, you're probably an alcoholic. If you're an alcoholic, you're effed. That's it. there's no changing a pickle back into a cucumber. I did drugs too. They were weird for me because they made me nervous. But I was never nervous with alcohol. Sometimes drugs helped me to control my drinking. But not for long. When it was time to put the drugs aside, I really had no problem. Not so with alcohol. Alcohol is long term.
Now knowing this, and knowing there are many fish in the sea...why would someone even get involved with an alky? That seems weird to me.
I hate lawyers too. Even when they're on my side. They get all the money, even if you win. It was so cold last winter that I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets.
Now the only reason I would see some having a problem with 12 step is because it's free, basically. It's about one drunk talking to another... then there's some kind of magic that follows. The new drunk sees a drop of truth about his/her situation. But that realization has to be followed up by rigorous action. They clean house and things start to look up. Give it away to keep it. It's an old story really.
It's a design for living that should benefit many really. But most wouldn't want to embark on the rigors of the program. Not unless it was life and death, of course.
There are only two types who can't get it; can nots and will nots. Most are will-nots. The can nots are those that are said to be "constitutionally incapable of being honest". These folks are rare. But even they have a "chance".
I've never in my 13 or 14 years of being on the internet and about 3 years prior to that on the message boards prior to the WWW (remember the AOL and Compuserve "Communication Post" days?) seen some people so interested in the alcoholic. Most people could care less as they've got their own problems.
I enjoy these discussions. Thanks for the reps from some of you out there. I can't find the one who repped me with the two initials. Please DM me! I want to return the Karma! I hope what I say can benefit someone out there.
I quit smoking years ago. Then I got started on chew and that was rough. I've been off that stuff for over 2 maybe 3 months now and that was tough. It's really easy for an alky to quit drinking. It's hard to stay stopped. It's also easy for an alky to say "I love you". It's near impossible for them to say, "I don't know."
Oh, I got one more; Why is it called AA? Because Liars Cheats and Thieves was taken.
Oh, one more; What's an A to Z meeting? Adult Bad Children of Dysfunctional Evil Families Getting Hooked Into Just Keeping Little Mean Nasty Old People Quiet Requiring Stupendous Tenacity Utilizing Vengence With X-tremely Youthful Zeal. I'll bet there's one in California somewhere.
To the alanon: This is a deadly disease to some (I'm so not used to having to defend this stance, but oh well) whether you're the alcoholic or the affected children or spouse or friend or family member, that I make light of it all. We joke around a lot. Maybe this is how we keep our sanity. (Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. )
But what I'm sayin' is that the Alanon program is fantastic. I know those folks are wonderful people and they do the same type of work and are entitled to the same struggles that eveybody else goes through. My wife met me when I was sober and she liked that "me". I was in past relationships where we met partying and when the party was over for me and I tried recovery, we grew apart. There's no telling what is best for a given situation. Counselling is wise, but I'd hope that we don't reinvent the wheel here. There's already a proven program out there. I would have assumed that there was less confusion out there on this topic.
Like Moon says, we can offer our prayers, as we have received many to bring us to this point.
Last edited by McGowdog; 08-31-2008 at 05:20 PM..
Reason: ADD
Where are you getting your statistics/information? Or is this just your personal beliefs?
My own research. I set out to prove that moderation had a higher failure rate than AA and couldn't. Turned out roughly 5% of alcoholics manage to quit/bring it under control every year regardless of method. Trust me. That was NOT the answer I wanted. I wanted ammunition to push for a 12 step program. Method doesn't matter. It appears that when people are ready, they find the method that works for them. If it works, they stick with it. If it doesn't, they stop going to meetings.
It appears that some alocholics have a deep need to be "normal" and will moderate because they can't accept not being able to do what "normal" people do. I, personally, consider it playing with fire but I guess it's really no different than me dieting (major nervous eating habit here). I still eat, I just have to control it. I don't get wanting to try an control drinking. It makes way more sense to me to just quit. It would be easier for me to just give up eating but then I'd die .
I quit smoking years ago and can't imagine trying to moderate. But it appears it may be as valid a method as the next one. It's not for everyone but it appears AA isn't for everyone either.
For me, none is the answer but my husband not drinking because it's what I want only goes so far. I hate that this is his fish to fry as I'd love to tell him how to do it.
And I wouldn't say he's not in recovery. So far, he's managing to moderate. He knows damned well the first time a six pack comes through that door, he'll be out it (definition of moderation is no more than one a day and most days are dry). We are not going there again and if he does go there again he will have removed all doubt on the part of the court of him being an alcoholic and he will lose our kids. I will not have them dealing with that on their own or even with me anymore. I fooled myself into thinking that my presence protected the kids but it didn't.
<snip>
Now knowing this, and knowing there are many fish in the sea...why would someone even get involved with an alky? That seems weird to me.
Speaking only for myself....
Growing up as I had, with the negative affects of alcoholism with my father and my brother, I was hell bent on NOT ending up with an alcoholic spouse. It was one of my few "musts". LOL. My brother, 9 years my senior, was very much a father figure to me... so in effect I had two alcoholic fathers and my mom, well, I don't know. Her drinking was problematic from time to time as I got older.
Anyways, when I met my ex (online), I eventually talked with him about my childhood and made it clear that the one thing I could not, would not tolerate was addiction / drug / alcohol problems. Well, he was a master manipulator and liar. It sounds hard to believe, but I honestly believed he didn't' drink at ALL, not even socially, until way too late... until we were very involved and my son (not his child) was, on his own, calling him "Daddy" and we were planning a life together. So I tried, for 10 years, and finally got tired of the broken promises, the lies, and explaining to the kids why Daddy was "asleep" in front of the computer, or on the bathroom floor, or why he was not home at 4 am when they woke from a bad dream and came to our room, or why there was a bottle of vodka in the dirty clothes hamper, etc.
I knew something was up with him, that he had some secret, but I imagine everything under the sun BESIDES alcohol. It never crossed my mind! As it turns out, there were actually 2 other women with him.... one being a woman, the other the bottle, but was young, dumb, and wanted to believe otherwise. I don't think it's that uncommon at all, sadly, for people who've grown up in alkie households to end up with the same in partners. I am supremely lucky that I ended up with a totally diff. kind of partner on round 2.
Wow. Sorry for your struggles. When they do that stuff, realize it's not about you. It's about them.
I would suppose the safe way is to find someone who CAN drink a couple. I don't know the statistics on people who can truly handle their booze, but they seem weird to me. For example, when you order a round of drinks and when the waitress comes by to take your drinks and get new ones, they don't have to slam what's left before they order the next. Or they don't have to order two at a time. They can truly drink half of a beer and not have to sip the rest down. Now to me, that's alcohol abuse.
The person who can drink like a "gentleman" baffles me. I was never that guy. Kathy Griffin jokes about it. She says the alky is the one at the party who announces that they're not having a drink. "I'm not drinking today." Well good for you. I'm not farting today. You want a cookie?
I hear that "normies" can drink too much from time to time. They come out during special occasions like ameteur night, New Years parties and St Patrick's Day and stuff like that... and they swear off drinking the next day when they're hangin'... but they can really do that. The best cure for a hangover is don't stop!
But I've heard that alkies have a positive knack for finding a woman who'll take care of them and be a saint for them. I don't know how this all works. There are times when the alky can really have their ducks in a row. It's too bad they wind up with such nice SO's. God does have a sense of humor.
Very well said. My thoughts are well wishes are with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
My own research. I set out to prove that moderation had a higher failure rate than AA and couldn't. Turned out roughly 5% of alcoholics manage to quit/bring it under control every year regardless of method. Trust me. That was NOT the answer I wanted. I wanted ammunition to push for a 12 step program. Method doesn't matter. It appears that when people are ready, they find the method that works for them. If it works, they stick with it. If it doesn't, they stop going to meetings.
It appears that some alocholics have a deep need to be "normal" and will moderate because they can't accept not being able to do what "normal" people do. I, personally, consider it playing with fire but I guess it's really no different than me dieting (major nervous eating habit here). I still eat, I just have to control it. I don't get wanting to try an control drinking. It makes way more sense to me to just quit. It would be easier for me to just give up eating but then I'd die .
I quit smoking years ago and can't imagine trying to moderate. But it appears it may be as valid a method as the next one. It's not for everyone but it appears AA isn't for everyone either.
For me, none is the answer but my husband not drinking because it's what I want only goes so far. I hate that this is his fish to fry as I'd love to tell him how to do it.
And I wouldn't say he's not in recovery. So far, he's managing to moderate. He knows damned well the first time a six pack comes through that door, he'll be out it (definition of moderation is no more than one a day and most days are dry). We are not going there again and if he does go there again he will have removed all doubt on the part of the court of him being an alcoholic and he will lose our kids. I will not have them dealing with that on their own or even with me anymore. I fooled myself into thinking that my presence protected the kids but it didn't.
Ding ding, we have a winner!! It's a physiological response that makes one drink turn into a compulsion. I personally do not like the term "disease" myself as an AA.
As far as success rates go. 5% sounds like a whole lot better than 0%. And how exactly is the 5% being assessed? Are they measuring only the alcoholics who have died sober at old age ie = success? There are millions of recovering alcoholics worldwide staying sober each day. What % of success do you call that? Is it only success if I stay sober for life? Are alcoholics not allowed to relapse and then come back, perhaps staying sober for the rest of their days?
The bottom line is you cannot rate success or failure past staying sober today.
5% is better than 0. That's 1 in 20 quitting or successfully moderating every year.
What I read seemed to look at the one year mark. That's when they consider an alcoholic to be completely sober. By then they've gotten back as much of their normal thought process as is going to happen. That's not to say some don't fall after that but they're considered to have broken the addiction by then and recovered much of their reasoning power.
I'm really stunned at how long it took my husband to start thinking straight after he stopped drinking (had to to see the kids when we separated. The only reliable test was a urine test to insure he didn't drink at all when he had them and it picks up drinking as long as three days ago if it's more than one.) There are still quirks that I would not consider normal but they are the new normal as we can expect no further gains. Anything missing now was sacrificed at the bottom of a beer bottle. Unfortunately, alcohol does kill brain cells and long term use can alter how the brain functions.
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I'll bet there's one in California somewhere.
