Alcoholics - have to shrug on this one

[fierce_flawless]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Wow. Sorry for your struggles. When they do that stuff, realize it's not about you. It's about them.

I would suppose the safe way is to find someone who CAN drink a couple. I don't know the statistics on people who can truly handle their booze, but they seem weird to me. For example, when you order a round of drinks and when the waitress comes by to take your drinks and get new ones, they don't have to slam what's left before they order the next. Or they don't have to order two at a time. They can truly drink half of a beer and not have to sip the rest down. Now to me, that's alcohol abuse.

The person who can drink like a "gentleman" baffles me. I was never that guy. Kathy Griffin jokes about it. She says the alky is the one at the party who announces that they're not having a drink. "I'm not drinking today." Well good for you. I'm not farting today. You want a cookie?

I hear that "normies" can drink too much from time to time. They come out during special occasions like ameteur night, New Years parties and St Patrick's Day and stuff like that... and they swear off drinking the next day when they're hangin'... but they can really do that. The best cure for a hangover is don't stop!

But I've heard that alkies have a positive knack for finding a woman who'll take care of them and be a saint for them. I don't know how this all works. There are times when the alky can really have their ducks in a row. It's too bad they wind up with such nice SO's. God does have a sense of humor.

I don't know how it works either, but my brother has managed to find a wife like that, one who will wait for him while he is in prison, and put up with all his crap when he's out... I think it's her low self-esteem, personally.

My ex found it too, for a while, with me, until I'd had enough. Then I was vilified by his family for giving up on him. When I decided I only had 1 life to live and I didn't want to live the remainder of it hiding the car keys and the bank cards from my husband, didn't want to live worried about saying the wrong thing and having furniture thrown at me for it, I was suddenly the devil incarnate for not "standing by my man".

Whatever, his family was there before me and they'll be there after, enabling him all the while... so while I wish him nothing but peace, I have no guilt about my final decisions.

I'm just grateful daily that he has no license or car, so I don't have to worry about him wanting to drive and take the kids in the car. Gotta be thankful for something!

[McGowdog]

It's funny with relationships. Not funny ha-ha, funny weird.

I met my ex-wife pretty much during party central. I sobered up and we grew apart. I met my wife MrsGowdoggie when I was sober and she actually liked the sober me. What a weird concept. There was some drinking between then and now... I actually tried to hide my drinking from her. I did pretty good in that I never drank around her. I was usually out of state or at least in a different zip code. I let her know about my drinking on two occasions; once from a jail cell and another from a motel room when I was out on the road and was too drunk to work the next day. It was my birthday and I had to make it back for my own birthday party with a bad hangover. I got back into recovery and I've been sober since.

When I called her from jail that one time, I barely remember it, but she said something to the effect, "Stay there and get sober." So I did.

Now when the Alcoholic takes a wife (or hostage, as we sometimes refer to them in recovery), what is it that the potential spouse sees in the alcoholic? Are we so manipulative that we fool the potential mate? Or are some looking for excitement? Surely the mate doesn't meet the perfect man (or woman) and they drive the alcoholic to drinking, do they?

I told my wife that I was an alky from the get-go and she knew that I had a part of my life dedicated to recovery that had to be no matter what. She accepted that. Unfortunately, I was one of those that had to go back out. Luckily, I made it back.

I was truly sober when she met me. In fact, I was in a very strong group in Denver; the strongest group in the whole world, I say. But I took a job, moved to Southern Colorado, and eventually lost my path for a bit. I didn't drink right away, but once I started back, I found absolutely no control. I should have came clean to my wife, but I thought maybe I could keep my mouth shut and sneak back in. Maybe a year or so past until I finally hit a brick wall. She could have divorced me right then and there. But instead she said, "You know what you gotta do." So I did it.

Back in the beginning, she said, "I do." It's prior to the "I do" that people really have to be careful. Do you really want to marry an alcoholic, drunk or sober?

If you're a victim of this disease, that's too bad. There is recovery on both sides of the fence. If you're gonna stay married to the alcoholic, drunk or sober, you've got to be ok with you no matter what they do.

[ejl127]

What about just putting the garbage in the toilet

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

That's great. Did they teach you anything about putting the toilet seat back down, or taking the garbage out?
Actually I don't mind taking out the garbage, then I can check to see if there are any empty bottles in it. Oops alanon slip.

[McGowdog]

I'll take the trash out as long as she stays in the kitchen.

I'm thinkin' of installing a TV for her in there.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Well the way this thread has gone, I must conclude,

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

I truly wish your husband luck. I feel really sorry for him.

Your conclusions make absolutely no sense and someone's gonna get hurt in that situation. You really probably could use an alanon meeting. Then you can contemplate a 1 in 20 recovery for yourself. See, it's no fun when the shoe is on the other foot, is it? You're really messing with his whole chance for recovery. If you wanna sue him and shut him out, why not just do it and get it over with. Then he can go off on his own and drink, hit a bottom, find God and live happily ever after- with or without his family.

Hmmm, is it just me or does the topic of alcoholism increase exponentially after about Jan 2nd of every year?

[personne]

I stopped at page 6, when it became a debate about disease or personality flaw. What does it matter which it is unless it makes you feel superior, when you actually all agree that it is something that the people concerned with it can't fight, or have a very very hard time fighting? I understand it's easier to think they won't, but sadly it's very often not the case, not always, but very often.

What I wanted to say, and maybe there are people out there who are concerned for themselves or for loved ones, is that there is a drug being tested in Europe for the last years (outside the law - as in not approved by medical insurance, not as in getting you into jail) : baclofen. The reports since 2004, from doctors and patients, show that it has an incredible rate of success (of course, when one recognizes the problem and wants to end it) unrivaled by any other method whether it's traditional barbiturics, god or godlike associations like AA.


Many countries here have begun official tests, they have been forced by recognized and famous doctors, success rates, and the pressure of patients and their concerned families. I know that lots of American peoples have also asked their pratician to try that road. (http://baclofenforalcoholism.com/ There are many others out there)


It comes from the work of a French doctor who, however brilliant he was, became a hard alcoholic to the point of losing everything and at his last step to death (which happened since, too early) realized that his problem was maybe neurological (I give you the short version, you can easily google the long one) and also offered a solution for tens of thousands of people to either stop completely or become moderate in their alcohol cunsomption long term if that's what they wanted. And without the puritanical way of thinking all or nothing.

This doctor proved and has proved to so many patients that in high doses, baclofen helped to relax dependant patients (it is also tested for other very hard drugs) and thus helped them not crave alcohol by healing a neurological stress they weren't even aware of. It doesn't suppress the latent depression or other factors that help alcoholism of course but gives the patient a way to adress those by suppressing or at least minimize very much the crave which both creates and nurtures those factors.

To be more precise, the tests are not about its efficiency but mostly concern the second effects of giving a drug (used for decades) in much higher doses than it was intended for. For now, what has been observed are sleepiness and nausea for a relative few patients. One could say it's the everyday life for an alcoholic anyway, sadly.

Do I need to say it's not a miracle drug? No it's not. But it sure beats drugs like valium and every other. The big problem with baclofen in our capitalistic societies (I don't know about the system in the USA concerning drugs so I'm talking about Europe) is that it has been used since the 60's to relax muscles. And it has since fallen into the "generic" domain which means here that any lab can produce it for cheap and not have a monopoly on it. And big pharma makes huge money on anti-alcohol meds, new ones every year which all fail. It's a huge health politics question : how much do alcoholic cost society in regards to how much they reward labs. Sorry to be blunt.

It is also a huge moral question, as some of you have shown on this thread, there are a lot of people who want to shun this health issue as a question of morals and this drug trial could possibly show that you CAN drink socially and healthily whithout needing to drink.

Anyway, I'm not in any way saying that it is the solution for all. But if you are concerned or if any of your loved ones is, maybe it's a path to try and search?

Good luck!

ETA : if you're in a relationship with an alcoholic person who wants to get out of this or if you are alcoholic yourself and if you're afraid or stressed to talk about it to a doctor, here's a translated version of Ameisen's book : http://www.amazon.com/Heal-Thyself-D.../dp/B004KAB5DW

I promise I'm in no way promoting commercially this. Just trying to help if only one person out there.

[personne]

And I need to answer the questions now

Originally Posted by robertpolyglot

A couple of other observations/questions:
(1) Why is it that the countries that produce and consume the most wine (primarily in the Mediterranean), on a per capita basis, have the lowest alcoholism rates, per capita?
(2) Don't alcoholics who are really smart and interesting people know they turn into morons (or belligerant a-holes) when they drink?
(3) Why is this a disease? Let me explain why I ask. If a young person who has this supposed predisposition and genetic makeup, and has never sampled alcohol, is hypothetically shipwrecked "a la Gilligan's Island" and there is plenty to eat (say there is game to kill, fruits and vegetables, which can be eaten or juiced) but NO ALCOHOL, they would have no disease because there would be no cravings, no withdrawals and no physical symptons. In short, it's not a disease, it's an addiction. Gambling addictions, drug addictions and sexual addictions are called addictions, not diseases. What's up with this?

1) I think it's cultural and it works both ways. When you don't allow a teenager to have a glass of wine until he's 21 and way after he can die for his country, he/she can feel it's the adult graal which may explain your stats as to why US teens and young adults go too far. On the other handside, cultures who drink a glass or two of wine regularly, might not recognize alcoholism as an unhealthy way to live or even what is too much. In France, you go from a "bon vivant" ( = "good at living", someone who likes to eat, drink, have sex) to a "bum", no in-between. In the USA, from what I've read (here and other places), you can be an alcoholic from a glass of wine a week to 4 in a night, even if that night was exceptionnal. Puritanism is never good, blindness isn't either.

2) In the beginning, most alcoholics need alcohol to feel they ARE witty/funny/etc or at least they felt that way the first time they drank a few too much, and they probably were right in their way of thinking at the time, to tell the truth, people probably DID laugh and made them feel accepted. It's the following that creates issues. And while they keep searching for that impression and acceptance, they never find it again. Because being a drunk isn't funny, to anyone.

3) it has been proved that alcoholic ancestors are a factor in alcoholic offsprings. It's also often shown in studies that people will go from a "cured" adiction to another one. From drugs to gambling, from alcohol to majujana, from smoking to ..etc. Maybe that's it. And maybe, it's also something that reunites those people and that is some need to need something to be functionnal (or not) because you feel you are not enough. And that is psychological. But It doesn't mean it shouldn't be regarded in terms of medecine.