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Well the way this thread has gone, I must conclude,
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
I truly wish your husband luck. I feel really sorry for him.
Your conclusions make absolutely no sense and someone's gonna get hurt in that situation. You really probably could use an alanon meeting. Then you can contemplate a 1 in 20 recovery for yourself. See, it's no fun when the shoe is on the other foot, is it? You're really messing with his whole chance for recovery. If you wanna sue him and shut him out, why not just do it and get it over with. Then he can go off on his own and drink, hit a bottom, find God and live happily ever after- with or without his family.
Who's "they"? Just my opinion but I think "they" are flawed in their logic. Again, this is just my opinion based on my experience through my and other peoples sobriety i've witnessed.
Recovery is a life long commitment, a day at a time. How can one measure success for a total lifetime that does not yet exist?
And, recovery in many ways is much more than not drinking. It's learning not just to live without alcohol but to live life on life's terms. That where the steps and principals come in.
A lady friend of mine says that after 5 years sober you get your marbles back. After 10 you know how to use them again
p.s. Hope you don't feel i'm arguing with you? I'm just expressing my personal viewpoint to some facts stated as I see it. It's not easy no matter what side of the fence you're on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
5% is better than 0. That's 1 in 20 quitting or successfully moderating every year.
What I read seemed to look at the one year mark. That's when they consider an alcoholic to be completely sober. By then they've gotten back as much of their normal thought process as is going to happen. That's not to say some don't fall after that but they're considered to have broken the addiction by then and recovered much of their reasoning power.
I'm really stunned at how long it took my husband to start thinking straight after he stopped drinking (had to to see the kids when we separated. The only reliable test was a urine test to insure he didn't drink at all when he had them and it picks up drinking as long as three days ago if it's more than one.) There are still quirks that I would not consider normal but they are the new normal as we can expect no further gains. Anything missing now was sacrificed at the bottom of a beer bottle. Unfortunately, alcohol does kill brain cells and long term use can alter how the brain functions.
Well the way this thread has gone, I must conclude,
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
I truly wish your husband luck. I feel really sorry for him.
Your conclusions make absolutely no sense and someone's gonna get hurt in that situation. You really probably could use an alanon meeting. Then you can contemplate a 1 in 20 recovery for yourself. See, it's no fun when the shoe is on the other foot, is it? You're really messing with his whole chance for recovery. If you wanna sue him and shut him out, why not just do it and get it over with. Then he can go off on his own and drink, hit a bottom, find God and live happily ever after- with or without his family.
I'm messing with his recovery? How?
His counselor has actually advised I hit the door at the first sign we're headed down that road. Anything else would be enabling him.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-01-2008 at 03:49 AM..
Who's "they"? Just my opinion but I think "they" are flawed in their logic. Again, this is just my opinion based on my experience through my and other peoples sobriety i've witnessed.
Recovery is a life long commitment, a day at a time. How can one measure success for a total lifetime that does not yet exist?
And, recovery in many ways is much more than not drinking. It's learning not just to live without alcohol but to live life on life's terms. That where the steps and principals come in.
A lady friend of mine says that after 5 years sober you get your marbles back. After 10 you know how to use them again
p.s. Hope you don't feel i'm arguing with you? I'm just expressing my personal viewpoint to some facts stated as I see it. It's not easy no matter what side of the fence you're on.
They is the research I worked through trying to prove that 12 step programs (my preferred solution) are the way to go.
I agree with you that true success is a lifetime but you kind of have to call it somewhere if you want to compare things. They do it all the time in other areas. Diet programs will tout their weight loss percentages in a set period of time and the percent of people who keep the weight off 2 years after the program ends. We all know that some gain it back after that. It's just a way to compare.
I wish I had some long term data on moderation. My gut tells me it's playing with fire. But, really, no matter what program you choose, it's one day at a time. I don't like the one he's chosen but I don't get my choice here. I don't like that but I accept that.
Not sure where we stand on the success measurement meter. It's been 14 months since he last drank daily. I suppose that's something.
I will tell you this, I would not have accepted moderation out of the gate. Looking back, he needed a year of not drinking to let his brain heal. Most moderation programs prescribe a period of abstinance before moderating. He got to the 9 month mark and then started moderating. By then I had come to the realization that it is up to him to find what works for him not me. It's up to me to decide what I will tolerate. Sometimes I feel I'm straddling the fence. We'll see how long his willpower lasts.
I figure he's either going to make it or he's going to fall flat on his face. There probably isn't much in between the two. I'm hoping that, over time, he realizes it's easier to just not tempt fate. I know it would be for me. I'd be 12 steps all the way.
BTW I have been in alanon. It would have been a great help over the years but seems a little late now. Once he decided to stop/control drinking, I felt like I didn't belong. Everyone else was dealing with a drunk on a daily basis. The issues change once they decide to deal with the problem.
I like what your lady friend says. That's close to what the counselor says. He says that deveopment, literally, arrests at the point the drinker starts drinking. When they quit, they have a lot of years to make up for. It can take a long time to catch up.
As I said, I'd rather he did a 12 step program but having nothing to support they work any better than the next program, I'm kind of stuck letting him decide what works for him. My only choice is whether or not I choose to tolerate it. I have two choices. Stay or go. There are no others. We'll see where we are in a year.
Side question: Are there any moderators on this site? I'd love to hear your take on this. I've been to a couple of moderation web sites but they really struck me as people desperate to keep their drug in their lives and that was kind of scary. Their motivation seemed to be, the only way I can have it is to moderate it so moderate is I must. My husband's motivation seems to be being considered normal.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-01-2008 at 04:03 AM..
His counselor has actually advised I hit the door at the first sign we're headed down that road. Anything else would be enabling him.
Enabling is one thing, control is another. You're ok with him drinking one a day but once he brings a six-pack in he's on the street where you're gonna hit him upside the head with a lawyer and a custody battle?
Whatever it is, it's just a weird situation for him to be in. I commend you for trying to stick with him through this experiment and stuff, but either he's an alcoholic or not. There's no such thing as a little pregnant.
If you're not going to believe the difference between alcoholism and addiction, you're going to make sense of this experiment. If you're gonna do that experiment, he's supposed to take 2 drinks a day anyway. One may truly not be enough to set off the craving anyway-for some. I don't know where Marty Mann came up with her experiment, but a lot have used it.
It just seems to me that if the tables were turned and my spouse was a potential alcoholic and I was being rational about it, I'd let the chips fall where they may. Let them go and do as they may and if they get abusive or intolerable, remove them from the family or remove the family from them. Then let them go and hit a bottom and recover or let them do what they have to do. They may have to fail a time or two in their recovery, but the percentages for him are not really your business or within your control.
What if he's totally lying to you now? Alcohol is cunning, baffling, powerful. You really have no hope or respect for the "Program". You're so entrenched in this "New Age" counselling and stuff. I just disagree with you trying to reward/punish his behavior through all of this because this is truly a deadly disease. There again, I can't use that term because you don't operate on it. You insist on the term addiction.
This crazy book has a description of at least 4 drinkers on pages 109 and 111. It gives some pretty good advice of those who've come before us and in many different situations; practical experience if you will. It says, "The first principle of success is that you should never be angry even though your husband becomes unbearable and you have to leave him temporarily, you should, if you can, go without rancor. Patience and good temper are most necessary." Then the next sentence: "Our next thought is that you should never tell him what he must do about his drinking- if he gets the idea that you are a nag or a killjoy, your chance of accomplishing anything useful may be zero."
These are just suggestions that those who came before us have found useful. If you've been around this recovery stuff for long enough, you start to respect the paradoxes in this situation and can help to separate the true (from the experience of those in recovery) from the false (from the councellors who posture themselves as experts and make a living off this stuff).
Perhaps you're an atheist or an agnostic and do not seek a spiritual solution to this mess, but does that mean that you would deny him that path to recovery if it was available to him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie621
What does that mean?
Posturing yourself as so holier than thou... and so above those pesky addicted people may really be affecting you. As was suggested, there's treatment for that. Either that or living in a world of "Perfection" for long enough may get to you. Maybe an untreated alanon has a knack for attracting these crazy addicted people into their lives in the first place. Surely there's some place where you can go and not be inundated with these addicted losers, right?
Add: It's pretty obvious that I've got some experience on this recovery stuff. I've been struggling with it in earnest since 1993. I've had periods of drinking since then, but I've always gone back to the program. I've found many different programs within the program, if you could believe that...and all I'm asking is whether or not you're at least willing to believe that there are groups here and there that take this stuff really serious-like life and death serious- and they don't mess around. They offer a very straight-forward hard-core approach to this disease and the recovery from it. These people are some of the most well-adjusted and successful people that I've seen amongst any group of people anywhere. They've been doing this stuff for many years; there's bands of people with 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and beyond years of sobriety. They are typically extremely financially successful, very well adjusted in social situations, friendly humorous and happy, but deadly serious in their programs. They go to a meeting or two a week; none of this every day stuff, they are very health conscious and many that have once smoked, many have worked to curb it or set it aside as I have. The ones who have weight problems have sought help and many have shown much success over the 12 years that I've seen them... They've got a hold of something that I'm attracted to. All I'm trying to say is that there IS hope. My group hooks up with these Denver folks once per year for a spiritual retreat. It's plug into an AC socket knock your head off type Power. This stuff works.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Last edited by McGowdog; 09-01-2008 at 06:32 AM..
Reason: add coffee rant
"Enabling is one thing, control is another. You're ok with him drinking one a day but once he brings a six-pack in he's on the street where you're gonna hit him upside the head with a lawyer and a custody battle?"
Um, yes. Why should I tolerate going back to where we were before? The ONLY reason I dropped the divorce and custody battle was his agreement not to drink/go back there. If he wants to head back down that path, he heads there alone. There will be no repeat of that mess. The only reason I stayed as long as I did was I knew he'd likely get joint custody and my kids would be dealing with their drinking dad on their own half the time. BTW, we know from experience he cannot moderate at 2 drinks per day. It's only a matter of time before it's 3, then 4 then 5. So, yeah, if he comes through the door with a six pack, we're done.
"Whatever it is, it's just a weird situation for him to be in. I commend you for trying to stick with him through this experiment and stuff, but either he's an alcoholic or not. There's no such thing as a little pregnant."
Not a weird situation at all. I don't repeat the same mistake twice.
I never said he's a little bit pregnant/alcoholic. I acknowledge there are multiple paths to dealing with alcoholism. Some I like better than others but it's not my call. Either he follows the rules of his chosen path or he's out of here. If his chosen path had been abstinance, then I would have refiled for divorce as soon as he took drink one. To do anything else would be enabling hm. As it is, his chosen path is moderation. If he shows he can't stay on that path, we're done. Once bitten, twice shy. We will not repeat that experiment. We know where it ends.
This isn't about reward or punishment. It's about not going there again. Period. There is too much at stake.
Supposedly, he's already hit his bottom. If he has another one coming, I won't be here to pick up the pieces. BTDT and ran the kids through an emotional wringer. There will be no repeat cycle. We're done if he goes back to drinking. There is, absolutely, no reason I should tolerate going there again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If he goes back, he's proven that alcohol matters to him more than anything else in this home and we're done.
Honestly, he's lucky he got that chance. At the point he hit bottom, he was about to lose everything and I could have kept going and taken it. Almost did. I was well past the point of not caring anymore. However, if there was a chance my kids could have a sober father, I had to take it. Pushing forward at that point in time probably would have pushed him back into a bottle or worse (there's a detail I won't print here but something came out in our daughter's counseling that took him down to his knees. He may not have been able to handle a hearing where her counselors testified and, frankly, that would have compromised her therapy as well but if he kept drinking, there would have been no choice as you have to prove a parent unfit to take his kids here.).
As our counselor put it, "He can't fight his demons and you (me) at the same time". The counselor didn't want me to drop the divorce though. Just ask for a delay in the hearing and give him time to prove himself. I decided to drop it because I needed to know what would happen when the constraints were removed because either way, they would be removed. If he did stay sober for a few months, the court would have granted him joint custody and once he had that, he could go back to doing whatever he wanted and there'd be nothing I could do to stop him unless/until he hurt one of the kids. So I gave him enough rope to hang himself by. If he did/does, then I've won my case. If he doesn't, he gets to keep his family.
"What if he's totally lying to you now? "
In what way? About the amounts he drinks? He can't. I know his drinking behaviors like the back of my hand. I can have a two minute converstation with him if he's been drinking and tell you how many he's had.
About his committment to stopping/controlling drinking instead of it controlling him? Time will tell and if it proves he wasn't serious, we're done. There's no reason to stick around once he proves that.
"Perhaps you're an atheist or an agnostic and do not seek a spiritual solution to this mess, but does that mean that you would deny him that path to recovery if it was available to him?"
He is free to choose any, reputable, path to recovery he wishes. While I don't agree with the growing number of counselors who have taken up the moderation mantra, they are entitled to their, professional, opinions and I"m not really in position to tell them otherwise. I just don't like what they do. It goes against my beliefs but I have nothing to prove my beliefs right and theirs wrong.
"Maybe an untreated alanon has a knack for attracting these crazy addicted people into their lives in the first place."
That's what gets us here but once you realize that, you're free to choose otherwise, which is why I will leave if his experiment fails. There's no point in staying and repeating the last failed experiment. It will be time to move on and find a healthy relationshp or, actually, none. I doubt I'd ever get into another relationship after this one. I think I could have a much more enjoyable life without someone elses baggage.
It will be time to move on and find a healthy relationshp or, actually, none. I doubt I'd ever get into another relationship after this one. I think I could have a much more enjoyable life without someone elses baggage.
Ivory, I've often agreed with what you've posted in the past, and I'm pointing out where it seems you are. This relationship with your husband is over. You need to start getting ready to go. I've seen the moderation route. Doesn't work.
Based on what you've posted in this thread alone, you're wasting too much of your precious energy on someone who really and truly isn't ready to give up drinking. Just walk away. I know it's easier said than done, but do it. It's over. Sooner or later you'll agree, but it's already over.
I think I could have a much more enjoyable life without someone elses baggage.
Amen to that last statement. That last paragraph you quoted wasn't intended for you, btw. But you've evidently recognized it.
Well, when I sit here and read that you're giving him enough rope it kind of makes me sick. But I see that you're not just a cold-hearted machine that has no good motive.
Let me get this straight; are you doing this "experiment" and putting up these ultimatums in order to both give him a chance AND to protect your children?
If that's the case, then I'd say you are to be commended and this is very interesting.
You do and should have a right to pull back and protect yourself and your children. Or to just straight-up divorce him and don't look back. But if he's abused you or your children in anyway, that should be grounds enough to keep him from them. Being a drunk doesn't give anybody the excuse for that. I've got a temper and all, drunk or sober, but I've been given the grace of God to know when to walk away from a woman. I don't have any children thank God. I have no idea what that would be like. If they were anything like me, I'd be doomed. My older brothers and I put my parents through hell. But we made it through. I wonder how we're all still alive. But this parenting thing... I don't know how people do it.
"Let me get this straight; are you doing this "experiment" and putting up these ultimatums in order to both give him a chance AND to protect your children?
If that's the case, then I'd say you are to be commended and this is very interesting."
Yes and thank you.
I told my lawyer, the day I dropped the divorce, that even if we end up divorced it's win win situation if my kids get a sober dad out of the deal. My lawyer didn't like that. Said I was compromising my custody case. He's right but there really is no choice. Whether we make it as a couple or not, my kids win if he stays sober and if he doesn't, he actually makes my case for me without calling in my daughter's counselors. I have nothing to lose and my kids have everything to gain.
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