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That’s where I disagree. Technology may have broadened the field for both but the results are certainly not a wash. Just in the time I’ve been here I’ve seen way more lonely, disheartened guys than I have women...in fact, I can only recall one such woman, who posted the day before I signed up. If the results were a wash then men’s and women’s experiences in online dating would be similar. Men would be swarmed at the inbox too. That doesn’t happen, because I believe there are more men looking than there are women.
That’s an important distinction...looking. I think in general women don’t look as hard for several reasons. They generally tend to be more content with being alone than they do risking a painful experience. Cultural norms (that men should do the approaching and women should do the choosing) are still such that looking isn’t something they have to do that often to see their options. They are also better equipped to wait longer to find a partner who meets their crieteria than at any other point in history. (And for a disclaimer, I’m not saying these are bad things, they’re just things that have changed the way dating works.)
I’m not saying that women have more good options. There’s a lot of scumbags out there, and women’s standards tend to be higher than them. But I polled Reddit a while back asking men and women how many were unable to find a date when actively seeking one. Straw poll, I know, but they’re in line with my experiences and observations.
One factor I think bears mention, is that women who are having dating problems, are probably less apt to be online complaining about it. They are complaining to their mothers, sisters, and friends. They are not going online and complaining to strangers as much.
There are a number of women here in this very forum, who have posted here for years and years, and I actually don't have any idea if they are married, coupled, single, straight, lesbian, miserable, happy or what. They give advice, but don't talk that much about themselves. One or two has even given me a hard time for how much I share about myself. I've felt scorn and disapproval from at least a couple of other ladies here, for sharing about my life whether what I was sharing was bad or good. If it's good, it's "humble-bragging" (or not-so-humble bragging I guess) and if it's bad, then it's "take our advice and fix your problem or shut up." Some people seem to really appreciate what I have to say, so I know that their opinions aren't universal, but it does make me think. Ah, but interesting to note... Men get disapproval for coming back again and again talking about their struggles. Are women simply more apt to judge? Are women more likely to keep our dirty laundry private? Are women more sensitive to the criticism, so less apt to do what guys do and post again and again about our problems?
I'm not sure what it says, but I feel like it says something.
One thing I think for sure though, is that men and women both have struggles with dating. It's just that those struggles are DIFFERENT, by and large. We women have many bad options, and by "bad" I mean men who are a high risk to mistreat us in ways that will make us unhappy. Whether that's a pump & dump situation or an abuser, or some kind of life-ruining train wreck. Experienced women feel a need to be wary and guard ourselves, because if a woman's experienced with men, odds are some of those experiences have been negative. And no it damn sure is not "Chads" who are the badly behaved ones. A less attractive guy is just as likely to mistreat a woman as a more attractive guy.
Guys THINK they'd like to have this problem, "lots of options"...but cannot seem to imagine, what if each and every one of them, was a bad option. What if you even settled for unattractive women hoping she'd at least be kind but nope, just another psycho. This one stole your money and property, that one cheated, the other one beat you up, the next brought 500 problems into your life and insisted it was all your fault, then there was the one who refused to work and slobbed around the house, wouldn't even bother to take a shower, smelled bad, made messes and expected you to clean them up... Oh, and when you have sex, you do not get off. They do, and then they're done. You get to be unsatisfied and frustrated that way, too.
If you saw "options" as THAT, you might understand why we were not grateful to be overwhelmed with such "options."
Nope. It's a wash. If more men are looking using OLD, something I agree with, its also true that they were also looking more PRIOR to OLD. Men were still the ones going up to women at bars, clubs, parties, etc and doing the asking. It's a cultural norm.
The equation is no different just because the technology changed.
I can agree with that. Then technology changed the size of the potential field, not the proportions of it. The women in the bar are no longer limited to the ones coming up and asking them. Their options are much broader (which has advantages and disadvantages) and their economic prospects are much better...both factors that make waiting longer and being pickier viable options.
I can agree with that. Then technology changed the size of the potential field, not the proportions of it. The women in the bar are no longer limited to the ones coming up and asking them. Their options are much broader (which has advantages and disadvantages) and their economic prospects are much better...both factors that make waiting longer and being pickier viable options.
And the men in the bar are also no longer limited to just the women they meet there. They, too, can hop on Tinder and not go home alone.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length
I can agree with that. Then technology changed the size of the potential field, not the proportions of it. The women in the bar are no longer limited to the ones coming up and asking them. Their options are much broader (which has advantages and disadvantages) and their economic prospects are much better...both factors that make waiting longer and being pickier viable options.
And my options, as a dude, are much broader. Because of that I can be much pickier and find people so much better fitting for me than I ever could pre OLD.
See? Works better for us all. I mean, who the heck wants to be with a woman because he is their only option, or the best available option out of very few? No thanks!
Hm, but one way in which I think that the advent of online dating has helped men?
Guys who don't make the best first impression in person, who are shy or nervous or socially awkward, can at least get an "in" if they can make contact online.
I've talked about how what gets me interested in sexual contact with a guy is conversation, I've explained that several times. Well some guys are good at doing the conversation face to face with an attractive stranger they just met, but not all are! My boyfriend most definitely isn't. He comes off stiff, nervous, overly polite and formal. I'll never forget the first time I visited his home and he was in his own space and more relaxed...more human. His whole demeanor, his energy was different.
But the reason that I gave him time, continued to interact with him, even though he was awkward in person, is because he contacted me online first and we really had a lot in common, and then he continued to message me and his ideas and philosophies were intriguing. In a world without any of that? Had he simply been some guy and I, some girl, at a party or a bar? He would not have assumed we had anything in common, and would have thought I was out of his league and he was wasting his time, so he wouldn't have made the effort (it was a lot of these common interests in our profiles that got him to message me in the first place.) I would not have assumed he'd be a good match for me.
Now granted, I was never into the "swipe left/swipe right" dating apps. I was always more wanting to dig in and read profiles and such. So for me, though, trying to connect with people "organically" in person actually made it more superficial. I ended up with guys who thought I was hot and were bold enough to approach me, and went with it until something soured it for me. The shy ones would still be standing by the wall, not getting my attention or any woman's.
So I think that the internet gives you at least another way to get women's attention and show what about you is there, that might not be apparent on the surface, but might interest someone.
And again, at least you know they are available to date. Can't say that for cruising the produce section at the supermarket.
One factor I think bears mention, is that women who are having dating problems, are probably less apt to be online complaining about it. They are complaining to their mothers, sisters, and friends. They are not going online and complaining to strangers as much.
...
Ah, but interesting to note... Men get disapproval for coming back again and again talking about their struggles. Are women simply more apt to judge? Are women more likely to keep our dirty laundry private? Are women more sensitive to the criticism, so less apt to do what guys do and post again and again about our problems?
I'm not sure what it says, but I feel like it says something.
Those are good points and very well may be true, but I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded statement. The only people I talk to about my struggles in-person are my mother and my therapist. My friends who are all married, in LTR's? They don't want to hear about that. Culturally I think there's a lot more disparagement towards lonely guys than there is towards lonely girls (and I think that's a factor in inceldom, FWIW). Makes us less likely to be open about it.
Maybe there are lots more lonely ladies than I'm thinking, they just find the support and advice they need offline. Lacking that, maybe lonely guys are driven online and are more visible to me as I'm scouring the internet looking for advice. But women tend to be more open emotionally. I'm not going to do a thread-by-thread count, but the numbers of women and men seeking general relationships advice on these boards (and elsewhere) seem to be fairly even; would women not use their in-person support networks for those topics as well, leading to an imbalance similar to the one seen in "lonely seeking" threads?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
One thing I think for sure though, is that men and women both have struggles with dating. It's just that those struggles are DIFFERENT, by and large. We women have many bad options, and by "bad" I mean men who are a high risk to mistreat us in ways that will make us unhappy. Whether that's a pump & dump situation or an abuser, or some kind of life-ruining train wreck. Experienced women feel a need to be wary and guard ourselves, because if a woman's experienced with men, odds are some of those experiences have been negative. And no it damn sure is not "Chads" who are the badly behaved ones. A less attractive guy is just as likely to mistreat a woman as a more attractive guy.
Guys THINK they'd like to have this problem, "lots of options"...but cannot seem to imagine, what if each and every one of them, was a bad option. What if you even settled for unattractive women hoping she'd at least be kind but nope, just another psycho. This one stole your money and property, that one cheated, the other one beat you up, the next brought 500 problems into your life and insisted it was all your fault, then there was the one who refused to work and slobbed around the house, wouldn't even bother to take a shower, smelled bad, made messes and expected you to clean them up... Oh, and when you have sex, you do not get off. They do, and then they're done. You get to be unsatisfied and frustrated that way, too.
If you saw "options" as THAT, you might understand why we were not grateful to be overwhelmed with such "options."
I agree with all of that. I've spoken to several women who express that exactly. I don't think it's different from what guys face once they do start getting into the field. They see similar kinds of crazy, with the definite exception of less physical and sexual danger (or sexual frustration). One thing I have no clue about...are there as many scumbag women out there as there are scumbag men?
One factor that I think takes women "off the market" more often is the tendency to stay in a bad relationship. Maybe it's for the kids, maybe it's economic, maybe it's afraid of starting over or finding someone new, or just afraid to be alone again. But it seems that women are more likely to put up with a bad situation than men are. I've got a friend who tells me about a girl she knows...says we'd make a good match, but this FOAF is in a relationship with a guy who treats her like ****, but won't get away from him.
Personally, it makes me very discouraged that I can't seem to separate myself from such chaff in the eyes of women when I'm asking them out.
And the men in the bar are also no longer limited to just the women they meet there. They, too, can hop on Tinder and not go home alone.
They do. And they swipe on hundreds of profiles hoping one will give them the time of day. So, no, guys aren't limited to being rejected by the two or three women at the bar or club...now they can be rejected by hundreds of women at once! [/snark]
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,962,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length
I agree with all of that. I've spoken to several women who express that exactly. I don't think it's different from what guys face once they do start getting into the field. They see similar kinds of crazy, with the definite exception of less physical and sexual danger (or sexual frustration). One thing I have no clue about...are there as many scumbag women out there as there are scumbag men?
.
I don't know about as many, testosterone and anger/violence probably has a tie, but there are plenty of scummy women. The difference is, as a dude, I have no physical fear of scummy women, while loads of women get physically hurt or even killed by lovers.
When I make a mistake, I have some mental and emotional heartache. When a woman makes a mistake, it can be her life.
Those are good points and very well may be true, but I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded statement. The only people I talk to about my struggles in-person are my mother and my therapist. My friends who are all married, in LTR's? They don't want to hear about that. Culturally I think there's a lot more disparagement towards lonely guys than there is towards lonely girls (and I think that's a factor in inceldom, FWIW). Makes us less likely to be open about it.
Maybe there are lots more lonely ladies than I'm thinking, they just find the support and advice they need offline. Lacking that, maybe lonely guys are driven online and are more visible to me as I'm scouring the internet looking for advice. But women tend to be more open emotionally. I'm not going to do a thread-by-thread count, but the numbers of women and men seeking general relationships advice on these boards (and elsewhere) seem to be fairly even; would women not use their in-person support networks for those topics as well, leading to an imbalance similar to the one seen in "lonely seeking" threads?
I don't want to say that women don't get lonely, but as a single woman, it feels to me like women depend a lot less on a romantic relationship to meet all of their emotional needs in a way that many men do. So if a man isn't in a relationship, he has no one (or very few people) to talk to or support him. Many single women, if they want a heart-to-heart, call a sister or a friend. For them, single and lonely aren't the same thing.
Aw, that's cute. The poster who tries to sling a barb while accusing me of "attacking" him because I do not see the world through his lens. If you feel attacked, I'm sorry you struggle, but I'm not rising to your bait, guy.
Incorrect. The article clearly stated that people in relationships are having about the same amount of sex that they always/ever did (which in fact I'd argue is false, because before cable TV and video games and porn, I bet people had sex out of just not having much entertainment to distract them, more often. Also, women could not as easily say no once upon a time, they had "wifely duties" in some cases, so...I question that stat.) The article was focusing on people not coupling up and being single & celibate as "the problem."
The article is most straightforward about people not in relationships, but half of it is about couples and I don't need someone disputing that. "Twenge’s study shows that the highest drop in sexual frequency has been among married people with higher levels of education."
Quote:
This attitude right here is why I, a woman with a very broad range of interests in men, a woman who has given quite a wide variety of men more than a "chance"...would reject you hard and fast. It's not so much that "fun" is the goal it's that happiness is the goal, and if you can't do fun, good chance you also cannot do happiness. Well adjusted and sane women, or attractive ones with options to consider, are not hot to sign up to be some guy's mommy+sex doll+battle buddy. We want happy lives. A guy with a "fun doesn't matter, I'm on a very serious mission" attitude, sends the signal that being with you is gonna be awful. If not right away, then surely once the zingy infatuation stage passes.
A thing a lot of guys are not seeming to accept. A GOOD relationship is better than being alone, for most people. But being alone, is better than a BAD relationship, full of drama, conflict, suffering, etc. Women who are making these choices (that seem to make guys so angry because they're not getting their "goal" met) are de-selecting men we do not feel we can be happy with. We do not look at a miserable man and figure he'd magically become happy with a woman in his life, as a lot of men seem to think they will. You won't. You will still be you. Wherever you go, there you are.
We have no less than three men in this thread who feel that dating is not about fun, it's about accomplishing a goal, it's work and it sucks. None of them is having a good time in dating, or much success, or sex. We've got at least one, who views dating as fun, as much fun as any other kind of entertainment he could be paying to go do, and whether he's found his happily ever after or not, he definitely does get laid. He enjoys a good measure of "success." At some point, and I am sorry if this feels like an "attack", you do have to look at what you're bringing to the game.
Changes in mindsets for sure, women don't have to put up with your crap. And in many cases we'd rather be alone than be unhappy with someone who thinks that "fun" is just trifling and frivolous, and who makes his crummy mental health our responsibility to try and "fix." Been there, done that, donated the t-shirt to Goodwill.
That's what I meant about therapy. Every guy is not *that* guy. Reasonable people know that relationships, after the butterflies stage, don't change happiness levels much, don't expect partners to much help their mental health, and I hope know that it's okay for partners to be grumpy if that's who they are and that grumpiness isn't automatically toxic. That said, when comparing singledom with a basically childless relationship, the latter should feel more fun or it's probably not a worthwhile relationship.
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