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I think those that do well with being alone probably had been through the trials and tribulations of marriage. Maybe once, twice, or thrice. By that time, they are too damaged to really have loneliness creep in. At this pointed, they are psychologically changed.
If they aren't damaged, then they simply got tired of looking at the same face over and over again or just preferred their own space.
Those who have years long dry spells are likely to be on the crunch to find someone.
Or perhaps being in a relationship isn’t a priority. Perhaps their happiness, self confidence and self esteem
are not dependent on being in a committed relationship.
Couldn't find the quote to quote Sonic, but that's quite the generalization that you draw about men. Didn't see that coming from you, Sonic.
Right, this was a case of "tone lost in text format." I was saying, "It would seem that female loners seem to reject male companionship along with all the rest, but male loners seem (sometimes) willing to make an exception for a woman to be in their lives...now why would that be?"
And the observation that maybe guys don't bring that much to the table (perhaps?) as a vague theory on it...now THAT is straight out of personal experience, both my own interactions with guys as well as so many men I've observed in relationships all around me.
Hm, let's see...what have I witnessed women bringing to relationships, versus men...
- Women usually work full time and bring home a paycheck.
- Women usually do a disproportionate amount of housework, if not all of it.
- Women often do all or most of the cooking.
- Women often do elaborate planning for holidays, vacations, and other family life-stuff.
- Women endure carrying a baby in pregnancy, giving birth, and all of the pain and lifelong body changes that go with it.
- Women often do most of the work involved in raising the kids.
- Women are caregivers to their men when they are ill and aging and need help and support.
- "How was your day?" Most relationships I know, after work time is structured around the man's needs. If HE needs alone time to decompress in front of a screen, he gets that while she bustles about dealing with kids, pets, and household chores. If HE needs someone to unload his problems on, she is there for him.
- Sex...well, that one varies. But having a steady supply of sex on tap is usually a reason men want relationships.
What does the man bring?
- He works full time (if we're lucky; and at the same time we are doing so.)
- He kills bugs in the house (we could do that.)
- He helps eat leftovers.
- He (hopefully) does yard work and light maintenance now and then.
- He "protects" in the sense of being the home defense and bodyguard, at least in THEORY, because how often is that actually needed in practice? I've not ever once needed that in my lifetime.
- He gives (odds are, in my fairly extensive experience) lackluster sex that doesn't really fulfill her needs, but that he's forever wanting her to put her time and energy into.
Some men give as much moral support as they get, mine does, but it's rare.
Some men know how to please a partner sexually. Mine does, but it's rare.
Some men help out around the house, mine doesn't, but at least he doesn't make messes I have to clean up like other men I've had around in the past.
Some men actually treat their partners with respect, plenty however are controlling, abusive, suspicious, or condescending. While this one is very "not all men" I would say I've seen more crummy attitudes than healthy ones.
Some men act like adult partners rather than adult children, but there's an unfortunate percentage of guys who don't.
An awful lot of men have anger issues, too. So that is a thing.
Yeah, here's a whole pile of gendered generalizations. That do NOT universally apply, not even in the slightest. But as a woman, I see dating as treading a minefield, where odds are high that any conceivable prospect will blow up in one of these ways, or some other. It's why after my divorce, while I had no intention of really being ALONE per se, I was willing to be very social and do some dating and fun outside the house in a semi-casual manner, I didn't think I was down for another attempt at a committed relationship. It was all about the many things I didn't wanna deal with in my home space, my house, my life. When I finally did change my mind, it was only because I found someone who was exceptionally unusual and it took quite a bit of time for me to be convinced that he brought enough positive and not negative, and it would be ok to go exclusive, to move in together, to plan a future.
It's like, if THIS, what I described above, is what you've seen again and again, and what you've experienced, then why would you voluntarily take that on? Especially if you are perfectly capable of finding and making happiness for yourself on your own?
Of course this mindset is quite similar to MillennialUrbanist, in saying, "all I've ever seen is misery in relationships for my friends, so I'm not gonna do that." Except for the fact that if someone else told me they had a happy and healthy and fulfilling relationship, I wouldn't question it, and I'm not saying any of this is how it has to be. One can make choices for oneself, and respect that others might do the same, and even speculate as to their logic. But this also one reason I find him so interesting...he feels that committed partnership is a lose for the guy, I see it as a likely lose for the gal. *shrug* Yet people still go on wanting it and doing it.
It's a good watch, but I'm sure an abusive man would be something you would not tolerate. Most all women would not, esp. after a bad experience.
But you talk about little things that irritate a lot of us and is quite common am steady couples, ie. "the cleaning up messes after a man", which is probably rather trivial, per the Dan Savage video and is one of those things that "comes with the price of admission".
Things like chewing with your mouth open, leaving food out after having made a sandwich (at least he made his own sammich right? lol)
Would you seriously walk out on a guy that just had a simple bad habit of doing that. Of course, you could weigh the good with the bad and if the good outweighs the cleaning up after oneself, then it may be something you could tolerate.
So it's really about what you're willing to put up with and weighing the good and bad of the partner. Some of the bad may be the "price of admission".
Of course, substance abuse, infidelity weigh heavily, but the little things are probably tolerable and is simply the price of admission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Right, this was a case of "tone lost in text format." I was saying, "It would seem that female loners seem to reject male companionship along with all the rest, but male loners seem (sometimes) willing to make an exception for a woman to be in their lives...now why would that be?"
And the observation that maybe guys don't bring that much to the table (perhaps?) as a vague theory on it...now THAT is straight out of personal experience, both my own interactions with guys as well as so many men I've observed in relationships all around me.
Hm, let's see...what have I witnessed women bringing to relationships, versus men...
- Women usually work full time and bring home a paycheck.
- Women usually do a disproportionate amount of housework, if not all of it.
- Women often do all or most of the cooking.
- Women often do elaborate planning for holidays, vacations, and other family life-stuff.
- Women endure carrying a baby in pregnancy, giving birth, and all of the pain and lifelong body changes that go with it.
- Women often do most of the work involved in raising the kids.
- Women are caregivers to their men when they are ill and aging and need help and support.
- "How was your day?" Most relationships I know, after work time is structured around the man's needs. If HE needs alone time to decompress in front of a screen, he gets that while she bustles about dealing with kids, pets, and household chores. If HE needs someone to unload his problems on, she is there for him.
- Sex...well, that one varies. But having a steady supply of sex on tap is usually a reason men want relationships.
What does the man bring?
- He works full time (if we're lucky; and at the same time we are doing so.)
- He kills bugs in the house (we could do that.)
- He helps eat leftovers.
- He (hopefully) does yard work and light maintenance now and then.
- He "protects" in the sense of being the home defense and bodyguard, at least in THEORY, because how often is that actually needed in practice? I've not ever once needed that in my lifetime.
- He gives (odds are, in my fairly extensive experience) lackluster sex that doesn't really fulfill her needs, but that he's forever wanting her to put her time and energy into.
Some men give as much moral support as they get, mine does, but it's rare.
Some men know how to please a partner sexually. Mine does, but it's rare.
Some men help out around the house, mine doesn't, but at least he doesn't make messes I have to clean up like other men I've had around in the past.
Some men actually treat their partners with respect, plenty however are controlling, abusive, suspicious, or condescending. While this one is very "not all men" I would say I've seen more crummy attitudes than healthy ones.
Some men act like adult partners rather than adult children, but there's an unfortunate percentage of guys who don't.
An awful lot of men have anger issues, too. So that is a thing.
Yeah, here's a whole pile of gendered generalizations. That do NOT universally apply, not even in the slightest. But as a woman, I see dating as treading a minefield, where odds are high that any conceivable prospect will blow up in one of these ways, or some other. It's why after my divorce, while I had no intention of really being ALONE per se, I was willing to be very social and do some dating and fun outside the house in a semi-casual manner, I didn't think I was down for another attempt at a committed relationship. It was all about the many things I didn't wanna deal with in my home space, my house, my life. When I finally did change my mind, it was only because I found someone who was exceptionally unusual and it took quite a bit of time for me to be convinced that he brought enough positive and not negative, and it would be ok to go exclusive, to move in together, to plan a future.
It's like, if THIS, what I described above, is what you've seen again and again, and what you've experienced, then why would you voluntarily take that on? Especially if you are perfectly capable of finding and making happiness for yourself on your own?
Of course this mindset is quite similar to MillennialUrbanist, in saying, "all I've ever seen is misery in relationships for my friends, so I'm not gonna do that." Except for the fact that if someone else told me they had a happy and healthy and fulfilling relationship, I wouldn't question it, and I'm not saying any of this is how it has to be. One can make choices for oneself, and respect that others might do the same, and even speculate as to their logic. But this also one reason I find him so interesting...he feels that committed partnership is a lose for the guy, I see it as a likely lose for the gal. *shrug* Yet people still go on wanting it and doing it.
It's a good watch, but I'm sure an abusive man would be something you would not tolerate. Most all women would not, esp. after a bad experience.
But you talk about little things that irritate a lot of us and is quite common am steady couples, ie. "the cleaning up messes after a man", which is probably rather trivial, per the Dan Savage video and is one of those things that "comes with the price of admission".
Things like chewing with your mouth open, leaving food out after having made a sandwich (at least he made his own sammich right? lol)
Would you seriously walk out on a guy that just had a simple bad habit of doing that. Of course, you could weigh the good with the bad and if the good outweighs the cleaning up after oneself, then it may be something you could tolerate.
So it's really about what you're willing to put up with and weighing the good and bad of the partner. Some of the bad may be the "price of admission".
Of course, substance abuse, infidelity weigh heavily, but the little things are probably tolerable and is simply the price of admission.
Please tell me what good things this imaginary man is bringing into my life that I will tolerate him leaving food out on the counter and assuming I will clean up after him, as though he is a child. (Actually, my children know better.)
That is not a trivial annoyance. I'm not a slob. I like MY HOME to be clean. Why do I want someone in my daily life who will cause me daily stress with his daily bad habits?
What good is he bringing to make up for that?
I mean, in my life, we have a 3 level townhome. The basement is my boyfriend's area (it's a nice basement, not a dark or unpleasant space) and he is responsible to keep that clean. The main level is the common areas, the kitchen, living room, dining room and half bath. I keep all of that clean. The upstairs has my two sons' rooms and the hall bath (they clean) and my bedroom and master bath and the laundry area and hall (I clean.) Everyone does their own laundry. Boyfriend usually takes out the trash. I do all of the dishes.
I already do more cleaning than anyone in the house, since I keep the common areas clean in addition to my own space. For someone to come along and be slobby in those areas says, "I completely take you for granted and want to make more work for you." It's disrespectful.
It isn't even on the same planet as how you chew your food.
And I am under NO obligation to put up with literally anything under my roof that I don't want to, particularly from a grown arse adult who can make his own way if he can't live with my standards. Tell me, why would I?
And for what it's worth, the reverse is also true. I (unfortunately) am a smoker. My boyfriend isn't. He was willing to cope with the fact that I am, but if I started smoking inside the house I bet I'd hear about it. And I bet he would not be willing to live with that, nor should he. I go outside with my nasty habit.
Please tell me what good things this imaginary man is bringing into my life that I will tolerate him leaving food out on the counter and assuming I will clean up after him, as though he is a child. (Actually, my children know better.)
That is not a trivial annoyance. I'm not a slob. I like MY HOME to be clean. Why do I want someone in my daily life who will cause me daily stress with his daily bad habits?
What good is he bringing to make up for that?
I mean, in my life, we have a 3 level townhome. The basement is my boyfriend's area (it's a nice basement, not a dark or unpleasant space) and he is responsible to keep that clean. The main level is the common areas, the kitchen, living room, dining room and half bath. I keep all of that clean. The upstairs has my two sons' rooms and the hall bath (they clean) and my bedroom and master bath and the laundry area and hall (I clean.) Everyone does their own laundry. Boyfriend usually takes out the trash. I do all of the dishes.
I already do more cleaning than anyone in the house, since I keep the common areas clean in addition to my own space. For someone to come along and be slobby in those areas says, "I completely take you for granted and want to make more work for you." It's disrespectful.
It isn't even on the same planet as how you chew your food.
And I am under NO obligation to put up with literally anything under my roof that I don't want to, particularly from a grown arse adult who can make his own way if he can't live with my standards. Tell me, why would I?
And for what it's worth, the reverse is also true. I (unfortunately) am a smoker. My boyfriend isn't. He was willing to cope with the fact that I am, but if I started smoking inside the house I bet I'd hear about it. And I bet he would not be willing to live with that, nor should he. I go outside with my nasty habit.
Well, smoking is a deal breaker with me altogether. I had to end a relationship with a woman that was trying to quit, but started back up.
Were you surprised that wasn't a deal breaker for him?
Well, smoking is a deal breaker with me altogether. I had to end a relationship with a woman that was trying to quit, but started back up.
Were you surprised that wasn't a deal breaker for him?
I was neither surprised nor unsurprised. But he knew it the first night we met up. Had he not wanted to get together again after that, it wouldn't have mattered.
But then we didn't meet under the auspices of a normal dating situation. We did not develop any real intention toward sex or a relationship for the first couple of months.
Honestly I had been far more surprised, in that a number of quality people were willing to partner with me and love me, because of the other stuff going on in my life. When I met them, including the man I'm still with, I still lived in the same house as my ex, in a spare bedroom, because we were trying to sort out the terms of parting ways. We had not even filed the divorce yet, though we were quite broken up in a very permanent way. Yet he was unstable, and could have found cause to make trouble for partners of mine, and none of my partners could visit my home then. I also had two teenage sons to contend with.
I used to say, "I wouldn't date me." It was true. I'd have declined a person with the factors going on in life that I had. Yet I was grateful to them for feeling otherwise. I certainly needed the good mojo in my life during that difficult time.
Just skimming through this thread and having seen only the dependence argument, I think in many cases it's more that the Internet allows 'loner' women the chance to socialize with mostly other women when they feel like it, especially if they live in urban areas so that it's not just online socializing. Then they can get their social and intellectual needs met without male assistance. Many social media sites make it easy for women to be in mostly or entirely female company. If not especially unattractive, they can probably get some validation online from men if craving it. All that is a bit self-deluded and bad for society, but I can't change the world.
You are very mistaken. This behavior in women has existed for decades, centuries, millennia. Women tend to stick together better than men. Men on the average are more aggro and that reduces the chances men will get along, but of course we men have brotherly bonding so it works both ways.
Remember that many women were treated chattel in historic times. When you're chattel you stick with the other chattel, and they share the bond that they resent those who treated them that way.
But your comments blaming the Internet and social media are just wrong because things were just the same before we had that.
You are very mistaken. This behavior in women has existed for decades, centuries, millennia. Women tend to stick together better than men. Men on the average are more aggro and that reduces the chances men will get along, but of course we men have brotherly bonding so it works both ways.
Remember that many women were treated chattel in historic times. When you're chattel you stick with the other chattel, and they share the bond that they resent those who treated them that way.
But your comments blaming the Internet and social media are just wrong because things were just the same before we had that.
There might be truth in your theory about women bonding with other women because we shared a common problem and a common oppressor as it were, but I think there are far more significant reasons going back way, way further and including even matriarchal ancient societies.
Women doing the constant work of gathering, of child tending, women who have to go through pregnancy and menstruation, women who have to tend to the million and one tasks of the home front perhaps, will do so far better as a group, being able to help one another when one of us is out of commission for a physical reason, being able to team up to lift heavy things or do bigger projects. Sharing knowledge and information, when one makes a discovery, all benefit.
To me this is far more obvious and ubiquitous, than your "chattel" notion. For whatever that is worth.
Interestingly, when I observe women I've known, the ones who get along best with other women tend to be those whose positions in life are reasonably comfortable. Not necessarily rich mind you, but even ok in the middle. The women I've known who hate other women and see them all as catty and backstabbers (but who totally act that way toward other women themselves)...they tend to come from a place of very scarce resources. Which makes me think that perhaps increased stress, cortisol or something, might play a role in that mentality. Purely theoretical of course.
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