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You made it seem to be a common condition among men. That's kind of a blanket condemnation. You hear of the abusers but the responsible guys just doing the right thing don't get much notice. I don't see it as black and white but you seemed to be painting it a very dark grey. Either way I eagerly await the day when pharmaceutical birth control options are readily available to men. We'll be better off when the gate is being guarded effectively from both sides. Less chance of accidents if one side falls asleep on their watch.
I absolutely could not agree more on the subject of birth control. I really do want to see inequities that exist for ANYONE remedied. And I've definitely met a few men who had stories to tell about the helpless anger they felt, when denied custody of their kids, when they were perfectly decent parents and the ex wife was horrible (some of the examples I've heard include for instance, addicts, and women who bring men they barely know or don't know, into the same space as their kids.) Those men's difficulties are completely valid and they 100% have my sympathy.
And no one should have to deal with reproducing against their will, in my opinion. Not ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auraliea
I think Spork's response was shaped by ThisTown's post that seemed to be implying that women only use men as sperm donors. And I think her argument was more so to counteract his argument that seemed to blame women mainly as opposed to casting the same responsibility onto the men who helped create those children. He also seems imply that the women just leave the guys high and dry and those men had absolutely no say in it. (Just my assumption)
His response appears to be very polarized (which is what you seem to be calling Spork out for), but it's interesting that you didn't seem to "catch" what he said, before responding to her post. Just my observation.
In short neither men nor women are "angels" with this issue. In general, a lot of men and women are guilty of creating illegitimate children.
Yes, also to make the point, or try to, that being a single Mom just is not easy, and I really don't think that the vast majority of women choose it lightly.
I'm also speaking from a fairly personal place there, because I sacrificed a bit chunk of my life, and kept a stiff upper lip through years of being with someone I really didn't want to be with, because I felt that our kids needed and deserved both parents and a decent standard of living. I only left when it started to get seriously out of control, dangerously so, not when I simply felt like moving on, tralala. Of course my ex thinks I left him for frivolous reasons, or never wanted him because I'm a terrible person who can't appreciate "a good man." I get no credit for the years of hard work and patience I gave to our sons, or to him. He talks about how he wishes he'd thrown me out and taken the kids many years ago when he was still "young enough" to easily find another woman. But he has never put even a quarter of the effort into actual parenting I have, and doesn't care what's best for our sons when he's thinking about what would have simply hurt me the most.
ThisTown123's post was so weird to me like, "How can a woman leave a man but still be committed to the kids" like what, I was supposed to say, "Well your Dad is a lunatic, so I'm leaving him, bye kids, guess nobody cares about you now"...I mean... I know that many men remain committed to loving their children after a marriage ends, his post seemed to indicate that as somehow a weird thing for someone to do. Like questioning how you can leave the spouse and still love the children. Because, of course you can??? So there was the pressure of a thousand "wtf"s backing that little explosion.
My apologies if it felt attacky to guys. I know lots of you don't suck.
I don't regret having children. They give you a reason to live when their mother decides to leave and start a new life with someone she thinks is better than you. Nope, no regrets about kids. No regret about marriage either. My regret is that after divorce, i have wasted so many years trying to get my act back together.
At first, i wanted nothing to do with women. Then, after an un planned hookup with a much younger gal, my interest was renewed. Then dated (if you would call it that) a series of younger good looking women, knowing none were anyone I would want a relationship with, but they were hot and we had fun.
After a couple years of that, i blew it with a much younger gal who wanted to move in. I said no and she was gone. I rethought that decision but it was too late. I never quite got over that one, but i moved on. In the back of my mind I hope someday the phone rings and it's her, still interested because her deal didn't work out with the loser she is with, but not holding my breath.
So now, i catch myself reflecting on my life. It was great until age 50 when it went to crap. Those on the outside think it is still great because of the way I live and i have "stuff" that others would love to have.
Well, i would give up all my toys to have a woman to take care of, do things with, etc that I loved and would love me. You know, the fairytale.
I have been asking myself a lot lately why I still kill myself to a make a good living and why I maintain a big house. Maybe it's time to downsize into a small apartment and say hell with it and just exist until death. But, i know my luck. About the time i do that, i would meet someone and have to go back to living like a real person again. Ain't life great?
Man, it feels like we lead parallel lives, except I didn't get to have kids. I sure can relate to the wasted years. I told my therapist just yesterday that I felt like the last decade was a waste, except that I worked hard on self improvement. His response was it wasn't a waste then. I don't know. It took me a good 4 years and a move halfway across the country to get over my ex-wife. Even today I hold a lot of anger towards her for how she treated me those last 6 months and the subsequent divorce after what she said would be a "trial separation". Yeah, right. Divorce was always her intention. I've dated a lot since, ut haven't found the right one. Spent about 3 years with the wrong ones. I've about lost hope on finding someone at this point. Like you, I'd give up a lot for the right woman.
Exactly. Not having them is one reason why I feel life is meaningless for sure.
That is not a good meaning, no. The post you quoted was supposed to make any rational person chuckle and say, “wow that’s pathetic.” And somehow you said, “Yeah! That’s great!!” It’s just kicking the can down the field, admitting you were a complete and utter failure and you achieved nothing, but maybe your kids will (no pressure)!
“It’s never too late to be what you might have become.” You can achieve success at any age. You can learn new skills and do amazing things. Write a novel, take great photos, start a blog, make a YouTube channel, whatever it is it’s always better to try and fail than not try at all. Or as was said so much better...
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - Roosevelt
ThisTown123's post was so weird to me like, "How can a woman leave a man but still be committed to the kids" like what, I was supposed to say, "Well your Dad is a lunatic, so I'm leaving him, bye kids, guess nobody cares about you now"...I mean... I know that many men remain committed to loving their children after a marriage ends, his post seemed to indicate that as somehow a weird thing for someone to do. Like questioning how you can leave the spouse and still love the children. Because, of course you can??? So there was the pressure of a thousand "wtf"s backing that little explosion.
My apologies if it felt attacky to guys. I know lots of you don't suck.
The idea that once a woman is married she should be locked in does come up a lot on this board. Any reason that she wants to end a marriage is called "stupid and frivolous." So of course a woman would still love her children in and after a bad marriage. Heck, she might even still love her husband, but bottom line, if both people don't love the marriage, it's not a good marriage.
That is not a good meaning, no. The post you quoted was supposed to make any rational person chuckle and say, “wow that’s pathetic.” And somehow you said, “Yeah! That’s great!!” It’s just kicking the can down the field, admitting you were a complete and utter failure and you achieved nothing, but maybe your kids will (no pressure)!
“It’s never too late to be what you might have become.” You can achieve success at any age. You can learn new skills and do amazing things. Write a novel, take great photos, start a blog, make a YouTube channel, whatever it is it’s always better to try and fail than not try at all. Or as was said so much better...
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - Roosevelt
Not exactly. I wasn't saying its great at all. OK, maybe it is pathetic. It is what it is. I do tend to give myself zero credit when friends and acquaintances say I've done a lot. For example, I fear public speaking so I took a stand up comedy class and did a bit in front of 300 people, did a Dale Carnegie class, etc. I've traveled a lot and am successful. It just feels a little meaningless to me without having a family. Hence, why I can so relate to Bearsdad.
You know, it is surprisingly difficult to find recent data on restraining order stats. I am aware that when it comes to violent crime, men are most often the perpetrators, and they are also most often the victims.
A study I found did say that in custody cases where a protective order is issued, it is against the father 70% of the time. 72% of protective orders in California in 2005 (yeah I know, not recent) were by women against men. Another page in the World Health Organization's website says that worldwide, 30% of women who have been in a relationship, report having experienced intimate partner domestic violence and/or sexual assault.
Do you think that men are truly less angry or violent than women? I'm not arguing that women never are. I did mention that women, I'm sure, get away with it more often when we are.
You seem to really be missing my point.
I mean, I have agreed all along that men should have more equity in terms of child custody and divorce court, but I can't ignore the fact that a ton of men help to create offspring that they have no interest in doing the work to help raise. Let alone raise on their own.
And as critical as I can be of LowOnLuck, for a number of things she has shared with us here over the years...when she said her children don't need a father, since the one they had wasn't a good one, I saw that as kinda spitting defiance into the wind. Having someone to share the job doesn't seem to be a working option for her, from her perspective, so she's determined to buck up and do her best.
It never ceases to amaze me how men seem to need everything to be so black and white. If a woman says, "a lot of women I know seem to have experienced abuse by men." then some guy has to come along like, "You are saying all men are abusers and I feel attacked!"
Like unless people shut up and deal with abuse, be good, quiet little victims, we're somehow after you. I will never understand why you'd see it that way. Unless you are an abuser and want to defend your right to be one. Or you're just calling them all liars, and again, I don't know what purpose that serves.
I have a protective order against my sons father. It is in place until we no longer have to share visitation. He is not allowed to break into my house, come to my work or even call my phone, because I could show evidence that he struggled with all of it, and a judge agreed.
My exes are special types of people... I would hope that most men are not like them.
The idea that once a woman is married she should be locked in does come up a lot on this board. Any reason that she wants to end a marriage is called "stupid and frivolous." So of course a woman would still love her children in and after a bad marriage. Heck, she might even still love her husband, but bottom line, if both people don't love the marriage, it's not a good marriage.
Exactly. In some fashion, a part of me still loves every ex. Unfortunately most of me can’t stand them either..
For me, I don’t have patience. My life is already busy, complicated and full of drama. I don’t have time or desire to deal with the issues that many men come with. I have to take care of my children and pets because they depend on me. A grown ass man that can’t handle his own crap, can hit the road. No one has time for that. I am not a coddler, if they don’t fulfill my needs of being a partner and my friend, I don’t see the point to keeping them around. Kids are not and should never be disposable.
I also find in my long term relationships, things start good. We hang out, do things together and then as time goes on, I don’t get included, and they won’t do things I enjoy. They do their own thing, I do mine and eventually they have a new woman and off they go... that’s happened a few times.
I have been asking myself a lot lately why I still kill myself to a make a good living and why I maintain a big house. Maybe it's time to downsize into a small apartment and say hell with it and just exist until death. But, i know my luck. About the time i do that, i would meet someone and have to go back to living like a real person again. Ain't life great?
I was feeling like that, and wouldn't have felt any more "complete" had I met the right man. Maybe I did already, more than once and I wasn't the right "me".
Anyway-- do you have memories of going out with good guy friends? Were you able to really laugh at dumb stuff, talk about life and women? I started working from home and felt really isolated and had too much time to question my existence and the meaning of life. I was missing the happy hours or spur of the moment adventures I occasionally had with coworkers. I recently made a huge effort to make one or 2 women friends to go out and do things with. It has changed my whole outlook.
Exactly. In some fashion, a part of me still loves every ex. Unfortunately most of me can’t stand them either..
For me, I don’t have patience. My life is already busy, complicated and full of drama. I don’t have time or desire to deal with the issues that many men come with. I have to take care of my children and pets because they depend on me. A grown ass man that can’t handle his own crap, can hit the road. No one has time for that. I am not a coddler, if they don’t fulfill my needs of being a partner and my friend, I don’t see the point to keeping them around. Kids are not and should never be disposable.
I also find in my long term relationships, things start good. We hang out, do things together and then as time goes on, I don’t get included, and they won’t do things I enjoy. They do their own thing, I do mine and eventually they have a new woman and off they go... that’s happened a few times.
What's interesting though, is that I am now feeling the same way about my older son that I often felt towards his father, if at like...20% intensity.
When they are kids, yeah, they depend on you. You forgive all the ways in which they're a pain in the rear, because they are the obligation you helped to make, you just do what must be done. Starts with all the vomit and poop and everything, and over the years, one tribulation gets traded for another. Staying up late trying to help them do a school project they told you about yesterday when they were assigned it three weeks ago. Stressing yourself half to death when they went out to ride bikes with their friends, and lost track of time, and the street lights are on but they aren't home. Dealing with them getting suspended over a rude hand gesture in school that you're ashamed to admit they learned because you let them watch a movie that maybe you shouldn't have...*ahem*...ok maybe that last one is just me. But you deal with it all, whatever it is, because they are CHILDREN and they're YOUR children. Like how you just clean it up when the dog butt-scoots on the carpet, but you'd throw a boyfriend out for doing the same.
My ex was a grown ass man who should have known better about so many things, and each day I'd fume and rage in my head about everything he did that made my life more stressful and hard, knowing that trying to talk to him about any of it would be futile, and I'd fantasize about a life without him in it.
Now, while my older son is still my son, he is 20 years old, and he's not a complete thug or degenerate or anything awful, but my god he's lazy. I do not WANT to have to put him out and render him homeless, but I feel like it might come to that, and I'm stressed about it, and resentful that he would let to get that far. He messes up my house, doesn't clean a thing unless I harass him constantly over it, and sits in my living room playing video games or watching Youtube all day, unless I push, push, push to make him do anything else. I can't invite a friend over, he's left his trash, dishes and other debris all over the place. My home doesn't feel like my own, and he is the reason why. My younger son doesn't act this way. And even if my younger son were upsetting me, he is only 17. A 20 year old is...a grown ass man who should know better. It's not for lack of effort in trying to teach him. It's just he might need tougher forms of love than I really am comfortable dishing out.
His father used to be better at getting through to him, but now...he's drunk and high all the time, and my son doesn't respect him or listen to him. So I dunno.
Anyhow, I sometimes feel my anger rising about my son's behaviors and it feels awfully familiar. Oh yeah. That was every stinkin' day with the ex. *sigh*
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