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- Have to make first contact.
- Have to take initiative.
- Have to work to make themselves the best possible product.
- Have to work to "sell" that product.
- Have to take all the risk of rejection, at every stage (it feels like, I think.)
- Have to put all the "pursuit" or "chase" energy in...but not too much! And magically know how much is too little or too much at any time.
- Have to deal with the idea that no matter how much hurt they feel because of loneliness, women are out there saying they're having a jolly old time alone and don't need their company at all.
- And to add insult to injury, for the guy sending out message after message, going on first date after first date, being expected to be the one to put it all on the line, paying for the dates, simply by default.
The whole feeling that you are in a marketplace where the other people (women) are the desirable commodity, and you the desperate buyer in a never-ending bidding war. Like, I've heard enough from some guys, especially being on this subforum for years, to completely understand why just being assumed to be the one to pay for dates would get to feel like you're being taken advantage of.
Now I can think of plenty of ways to try and refute any or all of those points...and I'd be arguing with the best and mightiest logic I may have at my disposal...but it wouldn't matter. Because these things are EMOTIONAL TRUTHS based on the lived experiences of other people. There's no invalidating something so subjective as that. One can only try to understand, which is why even though I'm a woman, I can sit here and list all of those things. I can only imagine going through that. I get prickly and sensitive at relatively minor rejections and rebuffs, I struggle to muster the courage to deal with women I'm attracted to sometimes, myself...I have experienced maybe like 5% of the affiliated pains and difficulties of some of our male regulars here, and it's bent my emotions into a salty little pretzel when it's happened.
So god damn, I can have a bit of compassion and I can pay for a freakin' meal, if a dude is comfortable letting me do it.
Yes on a lot of dates I end up paying for nothing. BUT there is a kicker, women who are not virgin daters also know this, and will also realize that since I'm not a virgin dater either, I'm willing to take all the risks and costs, as an investment in finding out if she is worth more time and investment from me. A girl who don't know she's the prize, probably isn't much to hold on to either...
There has been plenty of times when I've gone home after a bad date, or after I've realized a girl is ignoring my calls for no apparent reason when I just think;
"F!!! these greedy wh***es, I'm going MGTOW!"
(This is typically when I have frequented CD in the past btw, because I'm alone, angry and sometimes drunk with nothing better to do than throw my crap on the internet as a release valve)
But then I always run into some flirty cashier or whatever and get back into the dating grind again.
If you're going to complain about the expense of dating, then don't do it so much, and do more than swipe on an app as your deciding factor to meet.
Dissenter often mentions his boring dates, and recently opted out of paying for a date he was on because she bored him to tears. I wonder what kind of interactions he had prior to meeting that he couldn't have figured this out beforehand. Liking a person's picture and them being agreeable to meet would not be enough for me to want to spend my time and money to go out.
I didn't meet my husband online but I met him at a friend's Christmas party when I wasn't expecting to meet anyone at all. Our IM conversation for several hours the next evening was so engaging and electric that it had had me really looking forward to seeing him again. I don't get the impression that many here are excited about an upcoming date, because they have invested almost nothing, not screened for compatibility and are resigned to an "might as well, got nothing better to do for an hour" mindset.
I'm not complaining about the expense of dating. That is what it is...the person who initiates the date should be prepared to pay for the date, and the expectation is that most of the time that will be the man. So be it. I accept that. I was wondering about the purpose of the first few dates. I'd assumed it was to learn enough about a person to determine whether or not you want to spend more time with them. You seemed to imply that that was information someone ought to know already before going on a first date.
Maybe not, and maybe going out with someone you're not sure about falls under the "giving them a chance" category, and from the other thread on that topic I know there's a lot of people who aren't willing to give chances. Fine, they've got that prerogative. For me, I'd be willing to go on a date with someone who sparked any interest inside of me. The first few dates would establish whether there was enough commonality and attraction to continue...go on a few dates to decide if I want to continue dating them. But maybe other people, perhaps even women in particular, make up their minds about someone and then decide to date them?
I'm not complaining about the expense of dating. That is what it is...the person who initiates the date should be prepared to pay for the date, and the expectation is that most of the time that will be the man. So be it. I accept that. I was wondering about the purpose of the first few dates. I'd assumed it was to learn enough about a person to determine whether or not you want to spend more time with them. You seemed to imply that that was information someone ought to know already before going on a first date.
Maybe not, and maybe going out with someone you're not sure about falls under the "giving them a chance" category, and from the other thread on that topic I know there's a lot of people who aren't willing to give chances. Fine, they've got that prerogative. For me, I'd be willing to go on a date with someone who sparked any interest inside of me. The first few dates would establish whether there was enough commonality and attraction to continue...go on a few dates to decide if I want to continue dating them. But maybe other people, perhaps even women in particular, make up their minds about someone and then decide to date them?
For women, they generally go on dates to see what happens, how the man acts. And will go on a date even with near zero romantic interest. Men however already have a high romantic interest and most men falsely assume buying her drinks, dinner, tickets, etc will raise her romantic interest. But what a woman is actually looking for on first dates is: Does he keep his attention on her or eyeing the cute waitress? Is he really paying attention to what she says? Is he making too early physical advances? Is he helping to make her feel relaxed and comfortable in his demeanor? etc
For women, they generally go on dates to see what happens, how the man acts. And will go on a date even with near zero romantic interest. Men however already have a high romantic interest and most men falsely assume buying her drinks, dinner, tickets, etc will raise her romantic interest. But what a woman is actually looking for on first dates is: Does he keep his attention on her or eyeing the cute waitress? Is he really paying attention to what she says? Is he making too early physical advances? Is he helping to make her feel relaxed and comfortable in his demeanor? etc
Does he have repulsive teeth?
Is he covered in dandruff?
Does he have weird squinty eyes and twitchy mannerisms that make me nervous?
Will he ABSOLUTELY NOT SHUT UP about comic books, for HOURS, after I mentioned it was not an interest I share?
Is he pals with the waiter, and obviously told the waiter about us sending lots of innuendo-laden text messages, to the point that said waiter is leering at me from across the room in a massively creepy way the entire time?
Does he suggest we take a walk around downtown after our meal, and then make a weird joke about dark alleys?
Does he, on the very first date, animatedly tell me about his love of enemas? Giving and receiving?
Does he insist on paying, after me offering sincerely (twice) to pay for my own meal, then during our conversation which was otherwise going pretty well, reveal that he is so deeply in debt that he's almost homeless and is looking for someone to help fix his financial problems?
Does he drag me under a stairwell and attempt to get his hands in my pants? (First date, 20 minutes after meeting.) To the point I make an excuse of needing to desperately use the bathroom, say I'll be right back, then make a run for my car?
I was "dating" for less than 6 months. 100% of these stories are about men I met on OK Cupid, men from the "vanilla" dating world. At least I did avoid any serious harm, and came away from the experience with amusing stories to tell. Was it fun? Well, sometimes, I guess. But "ridiculous" is more accurate...
I prefer to act like an actual adult about these things and just offer to pay. If he accepts, then cool. If not, that's cool too.
Hell, its a first meet up. Doesn't have to be so serious. Sheesh.
Exactly. Doesn't have to be serious. Just pay for what you ordered like any independent adult would instead of "offering". Imagine a man asking if you can give him permission to pay for what he ordered? See how silly it looks.
Yes, double sheesh. To Activities Accountants and the Dating Rain Men.
"If she does this, I will do that, if she does this I can't do this, if I spend $3 I'm way ahead of the game if she doesn't spend $3 she thinks I'm a stable man to take advantage of, if she spends $4 she's riding the carousel and used to paying like a damn feminist, if she orders an ice cream cone its a phallic symbol, if I order tacos I'm wondering of she has an STD and she should just let me know. No, make that AIDs, I've been scared of that since the 80s, is it still here? Does she have health insurance? If I ask she'll ask if I have a job, she'll want to know where I work. Typical gold-digger move..."
I picture the guy ruminating and perseverating while the date/friend/meet-n-greet-Female slips away...again.
If $3 is no big deal then why not pay for what you ordered as an independent empowered woman would instead of looking for excuses not to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL
I’m still SMH at the “investment” comment/attitude. Go invest in your 401k, I do, and I’m not keeping track of what I pay for entertainment, expecting a return on my “investment”. What a kooky philosophy. “Hey, I paid for drinks, what do I get tomorrow?”
Fail.
Well said. It's as bad as thinking "Hey, I am a girl so you pay for me...hey, you are the one who came up with the plan so pay up...Hey, I like old-fashioned traditions (when it is convenient) so you pay..." Fail. Isn't a date all about knowing the other person instead of going with an entitlement attitude?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Blue
I'm an old-fashioned person who really thinks the man should pay, HOWEVER, I think each person should pay their own for the 1st date these days, so men don't think the woman will owe them something. And I'm talking about sex here.
But, if the woman knows this guy for a while & knows he's a really nice guy, then let him pay.
Saying you are old-fashioned I suppose you believe that it is a woman's role/responsibility to have a clean house for her man, cook for him, do his laundry, etc., right? I mean, you are old-fashioned so.
Exactly. Doesn't have to be serious. Just pay for what you ordered like any independent adult would instead of "offering". Imagine a man asking if you can give him permission to pay for what he ordered? See how silly it looks.
I am not quite sure why you are so negative about me offering to pay for half or why you are so stuck on that word. Also, if a man asked me if it was OK if he only paid for what he ordered, I just would not care. All good with me.
Like I said before, it is NOT that serious. I have WAY more things going on that are more important than me getting my knickers in a twist about who pays for what on a first meet up/date and how that is communicated during that first date.
I am not quite sure why you are so negative about me offering to pay for half or why you are so stuck on that word. Also, if a man asked me if it was OK if he only paid for what he ordered, I just would not care. All good with me.
It's not being negative about it to say we shouldn’t feel entitled or expect something. It’s actually negative to do so. It’s a bit silly for two independent adults to ask someone else if its ok for them to pay for what they ordered if you think about it.
Quote:
Like I said before, it is NOT that serious. I have WAY more things going on that are more important than me getting my knickers in a twist about who pays for what on a first meet up/date and how that is communicated during that first date.
The best solution is to simply pay for what you ordered and not expect any entitlement. It’s not that serious to pay for what you ordered. I am trying to grasp the idea of asking and offering my date to pay for what I ordered “Hey Jane, can you give me permission to pay for what I ordered?...Hey Jane, I am going to offer to pay for what I ordered, do you accept my offer or not?”. It just doesn’t make sense. Good gestures are not offered, they are done. You are fine with a man paying for what he ordered while you pay for what you ordered as you said in your initial comment. If you don’t care and its all good with you then just pay for what you order .
For women, they generally go on dates to see what happens, how the man acts. And will go on a date even with near zero romantic interest. Men however already have a high romantic interest and most men falsely assume buying her drinks, dinner, tickets, etc will raise her romantic interest. But what a woman is actually looking for on first dates is: Does he keep his attention on her or eyeing the cute waitress? Is he really paying attention to what she says? Is he making too early physical advances? Is he helping to make her feel relaxed and comfortable in his demeanor? etc
Personal tangent, that's not very assuring for me, especially given Sonic's stories in the following post...all of those guys were at least interesting enough to make it to the date, and I'm sure most women have similarly horrible stories to tell. It saddens me to see how low the cut is, especially with not be able to make the cut myself.
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