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I seen quite a bit of 2 happening actually (I'm pretty sure a lot of 20th Century operated in a similar way). In fact, I've heard a lot about women conditioned to disregard their own instincts to date or be in a relationship out of some form of 'social obligation'. It's not being pushed now, but just a heartbeat ago, things were pretty close to the way you are talking about.
There's some validity to your point here, of changing societal and cultural perspectives on marriage. In fact, I'm very much for marriage, and I think the destruction of the nuclear family is one of the great tragedies of the 20th century. But this is now about coercion, cajoling, bribery, etc. I might disagree with the cultural shift away from marriage, but I believe that values can't be forced from the top down, they must spring from the bottom up.
There's some validity to your point here, of changing societal and cultural perspectives on marriage. In fact, I'm very much for marriage, and I think the destruction of the nuclear family is one of the great tragedies of the 20th century. But this is now about coercion, cajoling, bribery, etc. I might disagree with the cultural shift away from marriage, but I believe that values can't be forced from the top down, they must spring from the bottom up.
Common sense is finding your own happiness (and not spending hours debating someone else’s). The bottom line - one is responsible for one’s own happiness, whether married or not. It’s this perception marriage (or a relationship) ‘makes’ someone happy which is the exact type of immature thinking which will cause unhappiness. Fulfilled, happy people create happy relationships/marriages; they also create happy lives without relationships (if that’s their choice).
Brilliant! I wish I could have repped this more than once.
Everything boils down to what kind of person you are, and you generally attract what you are, or in certain cases, repel everyone. Happy and well adjusted people aren't attracted to sniveling malcontents who 'read articles on the internet' and think they have merit.
Oh, and if you want to talk about what is insulting to women, "saying or implying" that you know a woman's emotions better than they do is insulting to women. Saying or implying that you know anyone's feelings better than they do is insulting to them.
There's some validity to your point here, of changing societal and cultural perspectives on marriage. In fact, I'm very much for marriage, and I think the destruction of the nuclear family is one of the great tragedies of the 20th century. But this is now about coercion, cajoling, bribery, etc. I might disagree with the cultural shift away from marriage, but I believe that values can't be forced from the top down, they must spring from the bottom up.
The system probably functioned thanks to coercion, cajoling, and near-brainwashing of marriage as a good thing. I don't love that (and would prefer people naturally, voluntarily seek marriage and also fulfillment in other areas of life), but I'll take it, since the end result evidently produced more happiness and social stability (nuclear family ). People deep down haven't changed much, for better or for worse. Lol, we're not in a new era of people thinking for themselves and being their best. If anything I wrote in *that* is relevant, it's the drones comment. Everyone is molded by society. Therefore, society might as well mold in a direction that results in a populace that behaves itself and is satisfied with life.
Last edited by goodheathen; 07-05-2019 at 11:42 AM..
There's some validity to your point here, of changing societal and cultural perspectives on marriage. In fact, I'm very much for marriage, and I think the destruction of the nuclear family is one of the great tragedies of the 20th century. But this is now about coercion, cajoling, bribery, etc. I might disagree with the cultural shift away from marriage, but I believe that values can't be forced from the top down, they must spring from the bottom up.
I actually think that the concept of the "nuclear family" was a destructive manipulation on the part of an increasingly oligarchical, capitalism-out-of-control, greed and profit obsessed, small group of "leaders" who influence big government, business, media, military, etc.
Not so much in the sense that I think that an isolated single parent, or people who refuse to form families at all, are "the way to go" but rather that I think people once had more support and connection with extended families and community, and that to some extent we have lost that. It SHOULD take a (healthy) village, to raise a (healthy) child. Whatever happened to sitting at the feet of the elders listening to their stories?
But as a young Gen-X'er, I've been singularly unimpressed with the dysfunctions of my (Boomer, about age 60) parents. I feel I was called to a higher standard of coping with life, and stepping up my game, and I don't respect them. So I've drifted far from my family, which is sad to me. But I've found other people that I respect far more, and formed "chosen family" bonds with them instead.
In my opinion it's not a matter of people needing to be pushed into these...forced, artificial, dating apps, partner-shopping, "marketplace" constructs. I would just like for people to be able to seek, and find, real life community more easily. If people are mingling with one another, and not just some tiny insular group, but big groups, I think that most will find love with some person they encounter. The fact that we feel like we've got to force it at all, is what is unpleasantly weird to me.
But the "happy single" women are not the ones sitting home alone, I think. Or at least, not mostly. I know a few middle aged, divorced ladies, who are happy to go home, walk their dogs on the trails, and drink wine alone on the weekend. But it's the men who have no real social lives, but sit home angrily hammering at a keyboard about how much they want a partner...like do you think you order one from Amazon? I am NOT saying this is the reason that every struggling guy is struggling, I just see a lot of it on the internet, and I wonder.
The system probably functioned thanks to coercion, cajoling, and near-brainwashing of marriage as a good thing. I don't love that (and would prefer people naturally, voluntarily seek marriage and also fulfillment in other areas of life), but I'll take it, since the end result evidently produced more happiness and social stability (nuclear family ). People deep down haven't changed much, for better or for worse.
Quick question: are you the product of a nuclear family? Is that why you idealize this fantasy ideal?
The system probably functioned thanks to coercion, cajoling, and near-brainwashing of marriage as a good thing. I don't love that (and would prefer people naturally, voluntarily seek marriage and also fulfillment in other areas of life), but I'll take it, since the end result evidently produced more happiness and social stability (nuclear family ). People deep down haven't changed much, for better or for worse.
My suspicion is on the societal message being pushed. I'm taking a risk here. It is my opinion based on what I see that men and women are being played against each other in a nutshell and I think this is a large contributing factor. We're living in a time where people are more afraid than ever. Men are afraid of women because of what they hear on the news about certain cases and how men are interpreting it, women are more encouraged to be without men. etc.
Again, that's my opinion. Masculinity is "under attack" so to speak by society. And I think that is a contributing factor to why more people are single. We are in the midst of a change in society. I think everything that is going on like women choosing to stay single is in response to the changes.
Again my opinion. Could be wrong.
I'd prefer we build ourselves and (if possible) show that we are okay to date as opposed to 'cajoling' and coercing.
Think of it like a business. The accepted business practice is marketing what your business is offering. What would you think about a business that tried to coerce you to buy their products or services through shaming and other means of penalizing you?
Quick question: are you the product of a nuclear family? Is that why you idealize this fantasy ideal?
If we're talking about father, mother, and child(ren), I myself am a product of that, and I think it is a good thing, but coercing and cajoling for that, I don't see that working in the long run.
But nuclear family, I find that to be an interesting term. Makes me think of explosives.
My suspicion is on the societal message being pushed. I'm taking a risk here. It is my opinion based on what I see that men and women are being played against each other in a nutshell and I think this is a large contributing factor. We're living in a time where people are more afraid than ever. Men are afraid of women because of what they hear on the news about certain cases and how men are interpreting it, women are more encouraged to be without men. etc.
Again, that's my opinion. Masculinity is "under attack" so to speak by society. And I think that is a contributing factor to why more people are single. We are in the midst of a change in society. I think everything that is going on like women choosing to stay single is in response to the changes.
Again my opinion. Could be wrong.
I'd prefer we build ourselves and (if possible) show that we are okay to date as opposed to 'cajoling' and coercing.
Think of it like a business. The accepted business practice is marketing what your business is offering. What would you think about a business that tried to coerce you to buy their products or services through shaming and other means of penalizing you?
Another aspect of this, which the OP doesn't appear to grasp, is that a woman who wants to marry and follow traditional gender expectations actually cares what the male part of the equation has to offer. If he fetishisizes this marriage concept, his best option remains that he improve his stock as a potential mate, not spin his wheels in an effort to increase the quantity of available women. If the amount of single and interested females doubled overnight in his area, does anyone really believe any of them would be interested in pairing up with him specifically?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602
If we're talking about father, mother, and child(ren), I myself am a product of that, and I think it is a good thing, but coercing and cajoling for that, I don't see that working in the long run.
But nuclear family, I find that to be an interesting term. Makes me think of explosives.
Interesting point - I think his answer to my question might explain his obsession with traditional marriage ideals.
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