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I am laughing at this since it touches on a conversation I had with my 16yo daughter yesterday. She was kinda blown away by this app called Life 360. All of her friends have this app so their parents can track where they are. She was like, are you going to do this? Like take a second to think about this. I had no idea this app exists. Of course I know it is possible to track your kid's location by their phone. And I rejected the idea that this is a good thing. But by bringing it up, she could have planted the seed in my head. I told her no, I had no interest in doing that. My job is not to hide her in a hole but to help her grow into the world she lives in. Be there to keep her safe while exposing her to life as it is. And I told her, yah on the day you do something destructive and dishonest, I will have to consider it. But so far, you have demonstrated good judgement by and large. And the bad judgement you have shown you have used as learning experiences.
That is to say. I agree with you. Our culture (US specifically) shelters kids way too much. And it is not helpful. Where is Mom to tell you what to do when you are truly supposed to be an adult? And where is Mom now to help these men figure out socialization?
To the point of isolating with online engagement. YES. My elder was like this. She actually managed to translate that into finding her tribe and connecting in real life, including her current partner. This is unusual.
I respect that. I'm protective of my friends and I imagine I would be quite protective of my children. But children do need to grow into the world and prepare for the world they are going to be living in. The sheltering has a potential crippling effect in my opinion.
It could mean anything but not necessarily that the man is asexual.
It's a fact that a good amount of normal heterosexual men don't feel very comfortable making the 1st move. It's an unfair burden to expect a man to always take this initiative just because he's a male. Women are perfectly capable of approaching men, it doesn't always have to be 1 way or the other. This is 2019, not 1950.
Yeah...I can see that.
At the same time, anything you want in life, the best chance you are going to have at getting it is if you are proactive at it. This goes for both men and women. So it definitely does not have to be one way or the other with who approaches who.
Unfortunately, for a lot of heterosexual men, no one is approaching them from what I hear and read. So they are going to have to step out and take the initiative. Or just work on being happily single and not dating.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by TJenkins602
Unfortunately, for a lot of heterosexual men, no one is approaching them from what I hear and read. So they are going to have to step out and take the initiative. Or just work on being happily single and not dating.
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Or they're not recognizing it when it does happen.
No, I'm not asexual. My libido has, indeed, diminished with age, but about what is expected at my age. You are questioning this because I don't have the inclination to pursue women. I've heard this before. Some people guess asexual,
Ok, not asexual. But would you say your sex drive is very low?
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others guess that I'm scared of rejection,
Every single person on the planet is scared of rejection. Some more than others. Often people who are have that fear will attempt to suppress that fear and deny that to themselves. They will find rationalizations for not approaching because of that fear.
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others guess that I'm gay. The common theme is that my behavior doesn't match what is expected. Some people on this forum have suggested that it's just nature for men to pursue women.
Men are expected to pursue by society. Women will intentionally wait for men to pursue. This behavior exists in most species, not just humans.
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But, after the teenage years, men are expected to learn about respecting boundaries, especially in certain circumstances (such as work.) My approach to respecting those boundaries are just more extreme than other people.
There is a difference between respecting boundaries and being a hermit and never approaching people. And sometimes you can only know the boundaries by actually going up and talking to the person.
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I don't see the benefit to making it known that I am physically attracted to someone. Some people on this forum have suggested that it's better to make it clear that I find them attractive, but I still don't really see the benefit of that. I'm keeping an open mind to people's feedback, though.
Well, if you have a sex drive and you would like to be in a relationship, then you have your benefit right there. Do you have a social phobia of some kind or are anti-social? How long have you been single?
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I have mostly female friends. These are people who initiated contact with me. Mostly women who are in relationships/married and it's mostly from work.
When you treat women like nuns thats what you get. If you are happy with your social life and are happy living alone, then continue what you are doing and never approach anyone.
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I've never thought of those negative reactions I got from women as "mean" or anything like that. I always saw it as a warning that I had stepped on her toes in some way; a signal to back off. Which I immediately respected. It didn't matter that I had no intent with her, my presence was unwelcome so I respected that.
Its good to back off because of a very negative reaction.
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Nothing personal there. The trick moving forward, as I'm contemplating changing this, is to still respect that, but be okay with triggering the responses. So far, I've not gotten a ton of reassuring feedback in these forums. It sounds like it's just inevitable that men will trigger these responses, and women find a way to be okay with it, so I should be okay with it too.
Thing is that you aren't ever going to make everyone happy when you initiate contact. Some people are just jerks, crazy, anti-social, just having a bad day, already taken, or just aren't interested. I just forget about those people and move on.
What a ridiculous thing to ask.
Some men don’t feel comfortable approaching women or asking them out but it doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of interest in women or sex, and it doesn’t always mean a fear of rejection.
So its ridiculous to think that someone who has never shown any interest in women or ever asked them out might be asexual (or gay)? It was just a question.
Just saying it's still a societal norm that the man is expected to make the approach and pay for dates, but it's not fair to expect him to always take this initiative and be the woman's money tree.
Some men don't feel comfortable with this, and as a woman I don't blame them.
I don't blame them. I simply think it is not good for THEM to get stuck in either the blame mindset OR the notion that there is some fairness out there that says they can remain uncomfortable AND achieve what they want. There isn't. And they can't.
First thing to keep in mind is that people can either have spontaneous or responsive sexual desire. I may notice a woman, she has nice boobs, I start thinking about sex and that might prompt me to talk to the woman and ask her out. I have spontaneous desire. This women didn't do anything intentional to me to initiate sexual thoughts in me to spur action. Women just give off a bunch of cues that I sexualize. With a lot of women they have responsive sexual desire they aren't initially thinking about sex, so they aren't going to ever flirt with you first because they just aren't thinking about you that way yet. That just isn't how they are wired. Moreover responsive sexual desire is much more common in women than men. It might be useful for you to spend some time googling this topic, but this is a good start.
So when you were waiting around, not approaching women waiting for her to signal her sexual interest before you would approach. A lot of these woman just aren't wired that way to signal interest. This is part of the reason I think you really do need to approach women first. But its also why I think a lot of women just weren't flirting with you. When you didn't approach and didn't talk to them, you didn't show up on their radar. So they had no reason to flirt with you.
As for signs of flirtation, look for signs of playfulness. Think of childhood games, like tag, its not the specific game that matters its the playfulness of such a game. If you aren't seeing it in your own interactions go watch some romantic comedies and look for the flirting in that or just movies like Waynes World where the protagonist falls for a girl. Start training yourself to recognize it first and possibly invent some of your own flirtation games based off what you see later. But its important to recognize this.
I didn't know about responsive sexual desire before. When I heard about people flirting and connecting, it seemed so random; a total mystery. So, having read about this, I'd say I have more responsive sexual desire. This would explain why I didn't understand why people would be driven to approach someone they find attractive. I thought they were just presumptuous and entitled (not to mention arrogant!) But, if they have spontaneous sexual desire, that would explain it right there.
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Originally Posted by shelato
Your persona right now might not be fun, but think about meeting people as an energy exchange. There are some people who give you energy and there are plenty who take it. When you go to the grocery store and the clerk tells you about how her 5 year old made her a birthday cake. You feel better about yourself for talking to her. But then you go the gas station and the clerk doesn't make eye contact takes your money and ignore you, he is taking energy. In general people want to be around people who raise their energy levels and avoid people who are energy sinks. The more you connect with someone, they more you get them to share their stories with you, the more either of you can make each other laugh, the more value you create in each others life. If you can't initially bring fun, than look for bringing in interesting stories to tell and share. Also its a process. If you aren't initially doing it yourself, watch other people do it and see how they do it. That idea of bringing energy is what I am getting at by bringing value to someone's life. Notice the energy vampires in your life and on this board and notice the people you would want to be friends with and why.
I tend to come across as very serious when people first meet me, and not "fun", but as people get to know me, they say I'm surprisingly silly and playful. I'm sure that "serious" persona is just from being introverted and a bit reserved (or guarded) for so many years. I like the idea of the energy exchange. I think it will work well with what I've already been working on for the past couple years, being more engaged when talking to people. I was reminding myself to look for possible doors that people open, but the energy exchange concept is more proactive.
I didn't know about responsive sexual desire before. When I heard about people flirting and connecting, it seemed so random; a total mystery. So, having read about this, I'd say I have more responsive sexual desire. This would explain why I didn't understand why people would be driven to approach someone they find attractive. I thought they were just presumptuous and entitled (not to mention arrogant!) But, if they have spontaneous sexual desire, that would explain it right there.
This is why some of us have been saying that you are operating under erroneous presumptions.
You're assuming things, and following a behavior model based on those assumptions, which just aren't true.
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Originally Posted by picardlx
I admit I only read this post in this thread, so I don't have all the back story.
But one fundamental aspect of your personality that I've been able to glean over the past year is you really seem addicted to predictable sequences. My advice would be to embrace chaos and unpredictability as part of the 'sequence' of life and your interactions with people.
This is one of my favorite recent posts.
The internet can attract people who are more in their own head, who overthink, and many of them seem to believe that if they search long enough they can find ways to overcome or work around the awkward missteps that they dread.
But sometimes you just can't. And you deal with it and move forward. And if you can't deal with it, you get help.
This is why some of us have been saying that you are operating under erroneous presumptions.
You're assuming things, and following a behavior model based on those assumptions, which just aren't true.
This is one of my favorite recent posts.
The internet can attract people who are more in their own head, who overthink, and many of them seem to believe that if they search long enough they can find ways to overcome or work around the awkward missteps that they dread.
But sometimes you just can't. And you deal with it and move forward. And if you can't deal with it, you get help.
Exactly. The “watch for when she does this, that is the time you should do that” advice. As if there is a script for finally figuring it all out without having to actually experience any of it! Not all people respond to the same action/statement with the same response. Some are receptive to flirting, some shut down if it happens before they’re ready, some have things they find unattractive, all for unpredictable reasons.
One of the advice lessons I roll my eyes at is the use of the word “escalate”. Someone describing the point at which you “escalate”. They aren’t there, they don’t know what you or the other person is feeling. When someone advises escalating I picture a guy getting on his tip toes and flapping his arms. Mating dance? How about if you just act like you like someone when you you feel it? Keep talking if they’re answering....easy things, stay true to yourself to find someone you’re comfortable with. No acting, no wondering if now you escalate.
Study all you want, what you’ll ultimately find is that you don’t get to know the answers until you get involved and learn from experiencing situations good, bad, and hopefully humorous. Even if you end up laughing at your own learning mistakes. Especially if you can laugh at your own mistakes. Live and learn.
Exactly. The “watch for when she does this, that is the time you should do that” advice. As if there is a script for finally figuring it all out without having to actually experience any of it! Not all people respond to the same action/statement with the same response. Some are receptive to flirting, some shut down if it happens before they’re ready, some have things they find unattractive, all for unpredictable reasons.
One of the advice lessons I roll my eyes at is the use of the word “escalate”. Someone describing the point at which you “escalate”. They aren’t there, they don’t know what you or the other person is feeling. When someone advises escalating I picture a guy getting on his tip toes and flapping his arms. Mating dance? How about if you just act like you like someone when you you feel it? Keep talking if they’re answering....easy things, stay true to yourself to find someone you’re comfortable with. No acting, no wondering if now you escalate.
First, sorry to derail the thread again. I'd put this in a DM but you're not accepting them.
I'd love to actually "experience it." Those chances just don't come around for me very often at all. I got better at normal social interactions through both study and practice...lots of practice. On a good day I have 5-6 chances to practice starting and maintaining a conversation. For romantic interactions though, I might not have but 5-6 opportunities per year to practice them. So, I study. I overthink. I ask questions that everyone thinks are obvious, stupid, or even trolling. What comes easy and obvious for all of you comes hard for me, or not at all.
For escalation, this was an issue that arose on the date I went on last year. She was polite, friendly, chatty...but nothing ever went further than that. At the end of the night I walked her to her car, gave her a hug, and that was it. I had been looking for an opportunity to initiate some physical contact...hand-holding, light touches on the shoulder or arm, stuff like that...but never saw any opening. Maybe that was her not showing receptiveness to anything more than conversation, in which case I accidentally got it right. But if I don't wonder if I should escalate from mere conversation to physical touch, I won't do it. That sort of interaction doesn't come naturally to me...in fact, for most of my life, I've shrunk from physical contact with women. Maybe some day I'll be able to read a situation and just make the right move, but for now...even contemplating on if/when I should hold her hand is a big step for me.
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