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I think what some men are wanting is a total stranger to agree to have sex with them. That is dangerous, particularly for the woman. Men need to try and understand this.
There are not many women who will randomly have sex with strangers. What they want is not realistic.
I think some of these men resent having to build some kind of connection with the woman first. This post is an example:
Wait! What? Lol!
I resent having to build some kind of connection with the woman first or is it just the saying?
Aye, I wanted to briefly acknowledge that I had encountered a different opinion (yours) but without making you feel totally called out about it. Thank you for this, it does clarify what I thought I was getting from things you said elsewhere. At that time, given that you were the only person I'd encountered who held the perspective I thought I was seeing from you, I wondered if your preference for something that would bother many of us, was a sign of different boundary behaviors. But given that you already had someone being argumentative with you over it, I did not want to engage you further on the subject at that time.
This makes a lot more sense. Again, thanks!
(Also I'm glad your neighbor got the message!)
Maybe I need to find my old post, I dont remember now how I worded. Maybe it was the long conversation we had with At Arms Length? He seemed a bit paranoid about coming across as a stalker just from talking to a woman, so I was trying to reassure him that he can talk to a woman and it doesnt make him at risk of being arrested for harassment or stalking. I get the impression hes too far on the other extreme.
But, yes, in other cases if a guy pursues me when I am clearly not interested (evidenced by my saying no thanks, not interested, not available, then ignoring and avoiding him), that is not ok. And if a guy does that, he is 100% responsible for his own inappropriate behavior. All anyone can do is set a boundary, but its not that persons fault if the other person opts to ignore and violate that boundary.
My stalker was already stalking me before I even knew he existed. That was not a failure on my part to set a boundary. How could I stop something I didnt even know was happening at the time?
Stalkers will stalk. Rapists will rape. Car hijackers will carhijack. Bank robbers will bank rob. The victim is not responsible for someone else's criminal behavior.
Next time a bank gets robbed Id love to see someone say, "Well we are not going to press charges because you should have known better not to have gotten robbed."
My stalker was already stalking me before I even knew he existed. That was not a failure on my part to set a boundary. How could I stop something I didnt even know was happening at the time?
Stalkers will stalk. Rapists will rape. Car hijackers will carhijack. Bank robbers will bank rob. The victim is not responsible for someone else's criminal behavior.
Next time a bank gets robbed Id love to see someone say, "Well we are not going to press charges because you should have known better not to have gotten robbed."
Don't swing too far in that direction, please, I was not implying a victim blaming stance here. I remember when you arrived on this board, unsure if you should speak to the police. Sometimes being ready to not only place a boundary, but reinforce it with spikes and steel, takes a minute. This was not a criticism of you, but in fact also an acknowledgement of a process I've had to work though in making boundaries for myself, as well as thinking of many women I have known. Even getting to a place where we believe in our own RIGHT to have safe and healthy boundaries can be a challenge sometimes. Let alone being as much of a hard-azz, as we've got to be, to make 'em stick.
And yes, I refer to that thread, which was as I said, rather tricky enough to navigate with the other poster's trigger-buttons all pushed and whatnot. We all speak from the place where we stand. But I don't feel it is worth a revisit of that whole line of talk, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the clarification.
I think it's important for men to understand that whatever a woman is looking for, those of us who have had a bit of experience in life, and/or those of us who are strong enough to stand on our own (especially financially)...we are pretty selective, whether it's a matter of a hookup or a relationship, and there are good reasons, learned from life, that we have for that. I've heard men laughing or complaining that a woman who ought to realize her "market value" isn't as high, because she's past prime fertility or whatever, should lower her standards and get with anyone who will have her. There are damn good reasons most don't. A lot of men are quite capable of bringing more misery than happiness into our lives. You wouldn't think that would be as big a risk with something that was supposed to be casual, but sometimes if you just open the door a crack, a dude will come barging right through and be hard to get rid of when he starts crapping all over the living room (metaphorically speaking...I hope, at least...lol)
Believe you me, I lament the fact that I was unwise and vulnerable when I was also young and hot, and my standards weren't higher then. But there's no excuse for someone like me to keep right on being stupid when life has given me every chance to learn from my mistakes. So here we are.
Don't swing too far in that direction, please, I was not implying a victim blaming stance here. I remember when you arrived on this board, unsure if you should speak to the police. Sometimes being ready to not only place a boundary, but reinforce it with spikes and steel, takes a minute. This was not a criticism of you, but in fact also an acknowledgement of a process I've had to work though in making boundaries for myself, as well as thinking of many women I have known. Even getting to a place where we believe in our own RIGHT to have safe and healthy boundaries can be a challenge sometimes. Let alone being as much of a hard-azz, as we've got to be, to make 'em stick.
And yes, I refer to that thread, which was as I said, rather tricky enough to navigate with the other poster's trigger-buttons all pushed and whatnot. We all speak from the place where we stand. But I don't feel it is worth a revisit of that whole line of talk, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the clarification.
I think it's important for men to understand that whatever a woman is looking for, those of us who have had a bit of experience in life, and/or those of us who are strong enough to stand on our own (especially financially)...we are pretty selective, whether it's a matter of a hookup or a relationship, and there are good reasons, learned from life, that we have for that. I've heard men laughing or complaining that a woman who ought to realize her "market value" isn't as high, because she's past prime fertility or whatever, should lower her standards and get with anyone who will have her. There are damn good reasons most don't. A lot of men are quite capable of bringing more misery than happiness into our lives. You wouldn't think that would be as big a risk with something that was supposed to be casual, but sometimes if you just open the door a crack, a dude will come barging right through and be hard to get rid of when he starts crapping all over the living room (metaphorically speaking...I hope, at least...lol)
Believe you me, I lament the fact that I was unwise and vulnerable when I was also young and hot, and my standards weren't higher then. But there's no excuse for someone like me to keep right on being stupid when life has given me every chance to learn from my mistakes. So here we are.
The exact reason I didnt want to speak to the police is victim blaming.
I dont want to live in s society where every woman has to be home before dark with all her windows and doors triple locked lest she tempt a rapist.
I prefer a society where rapists are dealt with accordingly, not excused for their crime because the victim is too scared to go to police because she will be blamed for it, even subtly: "Well you took a risk, you got what was coming."
The exact reason I didnt want to speak to the police is victim blaming.
I dont want to live in s society where every woman has to be home before dark with all her windows and doors triple locked lest she tempt a rapist.
I prefer a society where rapists are dealt with accordingly, not excused for their crime because the victim is too scared to go to police because she will be blamed for it, even subtly: "Well you took a risk, you got what was coming."
No. That is not what this is about. There is a difference between blame and responsibility, as I have said many times before.
I prefer a society where victims are not afraid to go to police for the many reasons that we are, and that cases result in appropriate justice, as well. I really, really do. But even if our justice system functioned PERFECTLY in this regard, I would still keep my doors and windows locked at night, like I do now. And I will want men to respect my boundaries, and I will enforce them to the best of my ability, and I won't go home with a guy if I'm not willing to have sex with him, or unless I know him well enough to trust him (which takes a long time.) None of that means that I accept FAULT or BLAME if I forget to lock a door and someone comes on in and assaults me.
And the thing is, while as far as I'm concerned, the matter about what you said before that you would reject a guy and want him to try again...but you clarified it here and now I understand it didn't mean what it seemed when you said that... To me, when I reject a guy, I am putting down a boundary. I expect him to respect it. If you had really meant that you expect him to disregard your fake boundary and keep trying...does that not look strange? Well of course it does, since that isn't even what you meant! So what's the problem--a mere miscommunication? There is no problem!
I have tried to express thanks for you clearing that up. You are not under attack right now, OK? I don't want to get this thread hijacked, and I have always been a caring and supportive voice to you, though maybe you don't remember that. I apologize if I've pushed a button here, because that's exactly what I was trying NOT to do.
No. That is not what this is about. There is a difference between blame and responsibility, as I have said many times before.
I prefer a society where victims are not afraid to go to police for the many reasons that we are, and that cases result in appropriate justice, as well. I really, really do. But even if our justice system functioned PERFECTLY in this regard, I would still keep my doors and windows locked at night, like I do now. And I will want men to respect my boundaries, and I will enforce them to the best of my ability, and I won't go home with a guy if I'm not willing to have sex with him, or unless I know him well enough to trust him (which takes a long time.) None of that means that I accept FAULT or BLAME if I forget to lock a door and someone comes on in and assaults me.
And the thing is, while as far as I'm concerned, the matter about what you said before that you would reject a guy and want him to try again...but you clarified it here and now I understand it didn't mean what it seemed when you said that... To me, when I reject a guy, I am putting down a boundary. I expect him to respect it. If you had really meant that you expect him to disregard your fake boundary and keep trying...does that not look strange? Well of course it does, since that isn't even what you meant! So what's the problem--a mere miscommunication? There is no problem!
I have tried to express thanks for you clearing that up. You are not under attack right now, OK? I don't want to get this thread hijacked, and I have always been a caring and supportive voice to you, though maybe you don't remember that. I apologize if I've pushed a button here, because that's exactly what I was trying NOT to do.
I am just trying to make a point. Its an important point to me. You called me out upthread, and I wanted to correct misinformation. The idea that what happened to me was due to my own failure to set boundaries.
Im really not trying to be difficult or obnoxious.
I dont know if you have ever been stalked or anything, but I wonder if people who havent might assume I did something to make it happen. Because maybe in their mind, they think "Well its never happened to me, so I must be doing something she isnt, Ive made wiser choices " etc.
You have photos of yourself publically available on this forum, you reveal the city you are in, which is not a very large city, like New York, you speak openly about sex, here on a public forum. Those are all things I consider unwise choices. If you havent been stalked, count yourself fortunate.
My stalker found me through my work. He stalked me without my knowledge before revealing himself to me. There was nothing I did to ask for that.
The person who stalks you could be your dentist, a client, your mail carrier, a friendly guy at Starbucks you see everyday.
The stalker stalks because of him and his own twisted reasons, not because of anything you did to bring it on, and the blame, accountability, whatever you want to call it, is 100% his.
You have always been supportive to me, which is why I was shocked to read that. It seemed out of character. I wanted to correct misinformation and I have now, so we can drop this now. Thank you for having a conversation about it.
Maybe I need to find my old post, I dont remember now how I worded. Maybe it was the long conversation we had with At Arms Length? He seemed a bit paranoid about coming across as a stalker just from talking to a woman, so I was trying to reassure him that he can talk to a woman and it doesnt make him at risk of being arrested for harassment or stalking. I get the impression hes too far on the other extreme.
For talking to a woman? No. Asking out women who don't have any interest in me? Yes, absolutely I'm paranoid about that. I've asked so many disinterested women out over the years...women I thought had been interested in me for a variety of reasons but weren't...that I'm afraid that I let hopefulness and wishful thinking override what social skills I have to the point that I don't detect or interpret observable signs of disinterest very well. At the very least those experiences have taught me what sorts of behaviors to not take as signals of interest, so I can filter them out and not make those mistakes in the future. I was further confused and put off by your stated behavior that you sometimes decline interesting guys that you may intend to date should they ask you again (I'm not trying to rehash that conversation or offer judgement, just to explain my confusion and fear).
But talking to women? I do that all the time. I just passed the point where I thought they might be interested if they actually spoke back to me and were nice to me. That's a dangerous mentality.
Last edited by At Arms Length; 10-17-2019 at 09:08 PM..
For talking to a woman? No. Asking out women who don't have any interest in me? Yes, absolutely I'm paranoid about that. I've asked so many disinterested women out over the years...women I thought had been interested in me for a variety of reasons but weren't...that I'm afraid that I let hopefulness and wishful thinking override what social skills I have to the point that I don't detect or interpret observable signs of disinterest very well. At the very least those experiences have taught me what sorts of behaviors to not take as signals of interest, so I can filter them out and not make those mistakes in the future. I was further confused and put off by your stated behavior that you tended to shoot down interesting guys to see which ones would ask you several times (I'm not trying to rehash that conversation or offer judgement, just to explain my confusion and fear).
But talking to women? I do that all the time. I just passed the point where I thought they might be interested if they actually spoke back to me and were nice to me. That's a dangerous mentality.
Thank you for clarifying. What you have done isnt a crime. At least I would not perceive it as such if it had happened to me.
My stalker was dangerous and malicious. Thats the difference. He is a criminal.
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