Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Replying to this, and also aiming my comment at shelato, as you were going back and forth on this point.
Look, I was 18 years with a guy who NEVER could see the real me. There are a lot of men (probably women, too) in the world, who care a lot more about a human needs-dispenser, than they do the real person inside the skin suit that they are attempting to woo or relationship with.
That was one of the best freaking metaphors I have ever read.
Quote:
They have this construct of what they want in a partner, and if you look good enough, they do what they can to smash you into the mold whether you fit or not. And frankly, IT SUCKS. Because someone so in love with their own fantasy, will never see the real person you truly are. You will be compared to something impossibly perfect that doesn't exist, for the entirety of your interaction with this individual.
Two more things that are insanely sucky is 1) The perpetrator has no idea that they are doing this, so their dysfunctional behavior knows no limits. 2) It is sooooo easy to manipulate the victim of this by charming but dysfunctional actions.
Quote:
So if I meet someone and they seem too heart-hungry or too enthusiastic, too fast, too soon...at minimum it gives me pause, and most it makes me dodge them.
You are nicer than I. I won't touch that **** with a ten foot pole.
Quote:
One of the best things about the beginnings with my fiance, was that he played it cool. Which is got-damn incredible for someone with his life story. But he even said last night, that he thinks that he probably put off a lot of women by coming off lonely and desperate for many years, and that eventually he had to embrace the reality that another person could not make him happy, could not save or fix him. That he and only he could do that.
I'm pretty sure it had been under 5 years that he'd been working on that philosophy when we met. And he has told me since then, a lot of the thought processes he was having, about how incredible and impossible it was that I "checked all his boxes" like I did, and how he was scared to death of messing it up, and all that...but he still managed to act reasonably chill face to face with me. I know now that he is an overthinker, but I did not see it then.
So about the mutual "liking" thing... I'm thinking of this adorable little old guy in my community. I liked him instantly, and I wanted to let him know but without like...OFFERING him anything...because I am/was in a relationship and not available or interested in him "like that." Yet I wanted to give him validation and goodwill, to help him feel welcome and appreciated. I knew he would find a great partner if he kept showing up and being himself, and I wanted him to know what I was seeing. Yet predictably I guess, despite me trying to be very clear that I was not offering him anything but friendship and validation of his worth in my eyes... Like at first our reciprocal "liking" was very nice, and very comfortable, and I was happy. Then he started doing this thing, where hello and goodbye hugs lasted too long and were often accompanied with a boundary nudging moan and nuzzle against my neck, or an attempt at a kiss. Not only has he had to be talked to SEVERAL times by various women he does this to, to get him to cut it out...if we don't remind him, he starts doing it again after a while, if he feels safe doing so.
And that's what sucks about the "mutual liking" with someone who is overly enthusiastic or nursing a fantasy about another person...sometimes they push too far, too fast. Even in a dating context where I could possibly reach a point where I'm also enthusiastic about pursuing a partnership with someone, I might not be there in the first ten seconds, or before we've met, or after one date, or something. If someone seems to be way more excited than I am, too soon, it feels pushy and uncomfortable. It's a delicate dance, but I think people need to chill out and play it cool until they have a sense that whatever level they want to step up to, is one that the other person is also ready to step up to. And especially in the early stages.
Very insightful. This is exactly how I feel.
Quote:
But (final thought, sorry for the novel) I also had the experience with my ex, that if I were not feeling well or something and didn't want to have sex, he used to say, "Got it...you have a headache or your back hurts or you're tired or whatever. You don't need to tell me the excuse, I don't care. The answer is no, you don't want me. One excuse is as good as any other." Constantly doubting anything I said and I mean I could have an illness or injury that was obvious, and he'd still act all rejected and bitter if I didn't want sex when he did. So at this point, if a guy I was connecting with expressed any doubts and didn't take me at my word when I said I had the flu (not that OP is letting her know that he's questioning it, but if I got a whiff of it, were I in her shoes) I'd immediately drop him as a possibility. Because I'd have the sense he does not care how I feel or what's going on with me, he's gonna ONLY ever care about what he needs and wants. It comes off uncaring and self centered.
It IS uncaring and self centered, it does not just come off that way.
lol Getting the story is like pulling teeth, isn't it?
So, OP, I'm not sure I understood; were you saying in your latest posts, that because she got the flu, contact hasn't been frequent enough for you to maintain interest? People interested in dating you are penalized for for getting temporarily derailed by a health issue? Did I get that right?
Tactically I think some excitement is useful. Reciprocity of feelings is one of the things that builds and drives attraction. If you are insufficiently demonstrative of your feelings, a lot of people are going to read that as he is just not that into you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
Most people don't have "feelings" for people they don't know at all, nor are they "into" people they don't know. Having "feelings" for potential is having feelings for fantasies about the other person and what you may want them to be to you. Not healthy, not smart. I think most people see other people expressing "feelings" for them as adults when we know the other person doesn't know us at all as something to be wary about.
Deal with reality, not fantasy. It's pretty simple, actually.
I figured if you were responding to what we both wrote, I thought it was useful to quote what each of us wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Replying to this, and also aiming my comment at shelato, as you were going back and forth on this point.
Look, I was 18 years with a guy who NEVER could see the real me. There are a lot of men (probably women, too) in the world, who care a lot more about a human needs-dispenser, than they do the real person inside the skin suit that they are attempting to woo or relationship with. They have this construct of what they want in a partner, and if you look good enough, they do what they can to smash you into the mold whether you fit or not. And frankly, IT SUCKS. Because someone so in love with their own fantasy, will never see the real person you truly are. You will be compared to something impossibly perfect that doesn't exist, for the entirety of your interaction with this individual.
So if I meet someone and they seem too heart-hungry or too enthusiastic, too fast, too soon...at minimum it gives me pause, and most it makes me dodge them.
Given your dating history, I totally see where you are coming from and both how and why you responded the way you did. That makes sense.
But I would say I am reacting to something else. I don't know if you are familiar with something called the principle of least interest. But in underlies a power game that I think a lot of people play in dating especially early on. Basically you have two people who go out with each other and then feign disinterest in the other. Whoever has shows the least interest in the relationship, is assumed to have the upper hand iin the relationship.
This game also drives a lot of the really toxic dating advice given to men by other men. So for instance there is this notion of spinning plates, here you try to date (and have sex with) with multiple women at any given time so that you are never too emotionally invested in any of them and you don't act too needy.
Now this advice works with a very specific type of women. If you act love avoidant, women with an anxious avoidant love attachment style will be attracted to you. But these relationships have lots of problems. She is always chasing and he feels he has the upper hand, but neither party is that happy. There is a reason these red pill men who spin plates are unhappy and have bad experiences with relationships. They are creating their own hell.
Here is the thing emotionally healthy people have feelings and they express them as they have them. Now I am not advocating that you should love bomb someone you just met, but it is okay to express the real feelings you do have as you have them. So its perfectly fine to say, you know I am attracted to you and I would like to ask you out. You can also say, I am excited that you finally agreed to go out with me, this is going to be fun. Emotionally healthy women respond well to that. Tactically it works, women come out of dates knowing you're interested, so the dates go better because she knows where she stands with you. Moreover when you reveal your feelings it makes women feel more comfortable revealing their feelings. This is how men and women with secure love attachment styles express their feelings.
Replying to this, and also aiming my comment at shelato, as you were going back and forth on this point.
Look, I was 18 years with a guy who NEVER could see the real me. There are a lot of men (probably women, too) in the world, who care a lot more about a human needs-dispenser, than they do the real person inside the skin suit that they are attempting to woo or relationship with. They have this construct of what they want in a partner, and if you look good enough, they do what they can to smash you into the mold whether you fit or not. And frankly, IT SUCKS. Because someone so in love with their own fantasy, will never see the real person you truly are. You will be compared to something impossibly perfect that doesn't exist, for the entirety of your interaction with this individual.
So if I meet someone and they seem too heart-hungry or too enthusiastic, too fast, too soon...at minimum it gives me pause, and most it makes me dodge them.
One of the best things about the beginnings with my fiance, was that he played it cool. Which is got-damn incredible for someone with his life story. But he even said last night, that he thinks that he probably put off a lot of women by coming off lonely and desperate for many years, and that eventually he had to embrace the reality that another person could not make him happy, could not save or fix him. That he and only he could do that.
I'm pretty sure it had been under 5 years that he'd been working on that philosophy when we met. And he has told me since then, a lot of the thought processes he was having, about how incredible and impossible it was that I "checked all his boxes" like I did, and how he was scared to death of messing it up, and all that...but he still managed to act reasonably chill face to face with me. I know now that he is an overthinker, but I did not see it then.
So about the mutual "liking" thing... I'm thinking of this adorable little old guy in my community. I liked him instantly, and I wanted to let him know but without like...OFFERING him anything...because I am/was in a relationship and not available or interested in him "like that." Yet I wanted to give him validation and goodwill, to help him feel welcome and appreciated. I knew he would find a great partner if he kept showing up and being himself, and I wanted him to know what I was seeing. Yet predictably I guess, despite me trying to be very clear that I was not offering him anything but friendship and validation of his worth in my eyes... Like at first our reciprocal "liking" was very nice, and very comfortable, and I was happy. Then he started doing this thing, where hello and goodbye hugs lasted too long and were often accompanied with a boundary nudging moan and nuzzle against my neck, or an attempt at a kiss. Not only has he had to be talked to SEVERAL times by various women he does this to, to get him to cut it out...if we don't remind him, he starts doing it again after a while, if he feels safe doing so.
And that's what sucks about the "mutual liking" with someone who is overly enthusiastic or nursing a fantasy about another person...sometimes they push too far, too fast. Even in a dating context where I could possibly reach a point where I'm also enthusiastic about pursuing a partnership with someone, I might not be there in the first ten seconds, or before we've met, or after one date, or something. If someone seems to be way more excited than I am, too soon, it feels pushy and uncomfortable. It's a delicate dance, but I think people need to chill out and play it cool until they have a sense that whatever level they want to step up to, is one that the other person is also ready to step up to. And especially in the early stages.
But (final thought, sorry for the novel) I also had the experience with my ex, that if I were not feeling well or something and didn't want to have sex, he used to say, "Got it...you have a headache or your back hurts or you're tired or whatever. You don't need to tell me the excuse, I don't care. The answer is no, you don't want me. One excuse is as good as any other." Constantly doubting anything I said and I mean I could have an illness or injury that was obvious, and he'd still act all rejected and bitter if I didn't want sex when he did. So at this point, if a guy I was connecting with expressed any doubts and didn't take me at my word when I said I had the flu (not that OP is letting her know that he's questioning it, but if I got a whiff of it, were I in her shoes) I'd immediately drop him as a possibility. Because I'd have the sense he does not care how I feel or what's going on with me, he's gonna ONLY ever care about what he needs and wants. It comes off uncaring and self centered.
she doesnt know im questioning it im only talking about it on here
I figured if you were responding to what we both wrote, I thought it was useful to quote what each of us wrote.
Given your dating history, I totally see where you are coming from and both how and why you responded the way you did. That makes sense.
But I would say I am reacting to something else. I don't know if you are familiar with something called the principle of least interest. But in underlies a power game that I think a lot of people play in dating especially early on. Basically you have two people who go out with each other and then feign disinterest in the other. Whoever has shows the least interest in the relationship, is assumed to have the upper hand iin the relationship.
This game also drives a lot of the really toxic dating advice given to men by other men. So for instance there is this notion of spinning plates, here you try to date (and have sex with) with multiple women at any given time so that you are never too emotionally invested in any of them and you don't act too needy.
Now this advice works with a very specific type of women. If you act love avoidant, women with an anxious avoidant love attachment style will be attracted to you. But these relationships have lots of problems. She is always chasing and he feels he has the upper hand, but neither party is that happy. There is a reason these red pill men who spin plates are unhappy and have bad experiences with relationships. They are creating their own hell.
Here is the thing emotionally healthy people have feelings and they express them as they have them. Now I am not advocating that you should love bomb someone you just met, but it is okay to express the real feelings you do have as you have them. So its perfectly fine to say, you know I am attracted to you and I would like to ask you out. You can also say, I am excited that you finally agreed to go out with me, this is going to be fun. Emotionally healthy women respond well to that. Tactically it works, women come out of dates knowing you're interested, so the dates go better because she knows where she stands with you. Moreover when you reveal your feelings it makes women feel more comfortable revealing their feelings. This is how men and women with secure love attachment styles express their feelings.
I am not saying that a man needs to spin plates, avoid attachments, and not express his feelings. And saying that you have a great time with someone and like them and enjoy their company, or you're enthusiastic about a date, that's not bad. This isn't what I mean.
When you go into a brand new connection with a ton of doubts (whether you express them to the person or not) and questioning their every move and motive, you are showing already that your default is to NOT trust. You cannot let go of an outcome and see what happens so you default to what I've been calling the "comfort of controlled failure" where since you MUST form an expectation, you expect the worst, to avoid disappointment. You're already setting up a mindset where you suspect that this person is lying to you, right out the gate.
What right does someone have to be controlling of someone that they barely know? To demand or expect any outcome?
Genuine emotional bonding happens over time. It does not happen in seconds, minutes, or one date. A very high degree of investment in what the other person is thinking, or if they mean what they are saying, or what this or that thing REALLY means and all...it is more reflective of the person's insecurity, than it is "Do women do this?" or "Is this woman doing that?"
If a stranger in line at the store sneezes, and then says, "Ugh, allergy season..." I am not going to side-eye her and think, "This woman is lying, she totally has a flu and is out to spread it to me, I just KNOW IT!" That could be the case, but I will take that comment at face value and say, "I'm sorry, yeah, know what you mean, I have allergies this time of year, too." So many of these threads made by men who struggle in dating, who are always seeming out to assume the worst (and the OP isn't the worst of this, we just see it so often it blends together after a while)...it's like, they are not only thinking she actually has a cold, they are getting on a forum to ask if she really has AIDS or something, and if they ought to get tested. It's like they're thinking the absolute worst of people they don't even know.
And that is hardly the foundation for starting a possible relationship.
Now... Several times I have felt the flush of infatuation for a new partner, and revealed it to him, and because he was not feeling it for me, he freaked out and ran. I have also felt instant "I'm so sorry" for guys who got very attached to me, when I did not feel it for them, and ended our connection. I once tried to make it work with a man who was love bombing me like crazy when I was...meh, not hugely in love, nor turned off by entirely... He was my ex husband. And my feelings and opinion for him diminished and his grew--his feelings were intense...I felt contempt and familial tolerance for him. I had come to believe that no two people EVER love one another deeply and truly at the same time. One person is in love, the other is settling, and the one who is settling will either break the other person's heart...or their own, if they stay and try to make it work. So I'd sworn off serious commitments and escalator relationships and the whole idea of marriage, more or less, as an impossible fairy tale.
When I met the man I am with now, I was not SUPER EXCITED, only intrigued and interested. He felt some excitement, but he kept calm. He did not latch onto me like "OMG I've been lonely my whole life and now you're here and you're the body type I like and did you really get your tubes tied and do you like D&D and Douglas Adams and will you go with me to Comic Con holy crap you're my perfect woman let's get married!!!" Had he done any such intense craziness I'd have said, "Excuse me" and walked away. He was thinking that he could not believe how perfect this was, and he was terrified to mess it up, and he was trying to play it cool. He was not desperate, or clingy or needy in any way I could detect.
It took me about 6 months to realize that I was really falling in love with him. We had a "I need to talk to you" date, and I told him that I was really feeling very much in love with him, and this scared me. That I felt very vulnerable. He asked what I meant. I told him that in my experience, when I felt this way, it was a pretty sure thing that my partner didn't, and that I was in for some heartbreak. But that I also felt that it was worth it anyhow, and I wanted him to know that I would understand, however things went. And you know what he said? "I think I feel the same way that you do."
Well. I'm not going to deny a good thing when the Universe sees fit to grant it. Fairy tale or no.
But not everyone feels like they've found The One in the first hour, day, or week of knowing a complete stranger. And I think that what Timberline and I both think here, is that being that invested in someone you do not really know yet, is projecting your fantasies on them, it's not real. Whether you are projecting the hope that this person is your perfect partner, or you are projecting the fear that they're lying and putting you off. You don't KNOW enough yet to be deciding such things.
I am not saying that a man needs to spin plates, avoid attachments, and not express his feelings. And saying that you have a great time with someone and like them and enjoy their company, or you're enthusiastic about a date, that's not bad. This isn't what I mean.
When you go into a brand new connection with a ton of doubts (whether you express them to the person or not) and questioning their every move and motive, you are showing already that your default is to NOT trust. You cannot let go of an outcome and see what happens so you default to what I've been calling the "comfort of controlled failure" where since you MUST form an expectation, you expect the worst, to avoid disappointment. You're already setting up a mindset where you suspect that this person is lying to you, right out the gate.
What right does someone have to be controlling of someone that they barely know? To demand or expect any outcome?
Genuine emotional bonding happens over time. It does not happen in seconds, minutes, or one date. A very high degree of investment in what the other person is thinking, or if they mean what they are saying, or what this or that thing REALLY means and all...it is more reflective of the person's insecurity, than it is "Do women do this?" or "Is this woman doing that?"
If a stranger in line at the store sneezes, and then says, "Ugh, allergy season..." I am not going to side-eye her and think, "This woman is lying, she totally has a flu and is out to spread it to me, I just KNOW IT!" That could be the case, but I will take that comment at face value and say, "I'm sorry, yeah, know what you mean, I have allergies this time of year, too." So many of these threads made by men who struggle in dating, who are always seeming out to assume the worst (and the OP isn't the worst of this, we just see it so often it blends together after a while)...it's like, they are not only thinking she actually has a cold, they are getting on a forum to ask if she really has AIDS or something, and if they ought to get tested. It's like they're thinking the absolute worst of people they don't even know.
And that is hardly the foundation for starting a possible relationship.
Now... Several times I have felt the flush of infatuation for a new partner, and revealed it to him, and because he was not feeling it for me, he freaked out and ran. I have also felt instant "I'm so sorry" for guys who got very attached to me, when I did not feel it for them, and ended our connection. I once tried to make it work with a man who was love bombing me like crazy when I was...meh, not hugely in love, nor turned off by entirely... He was my ex husband. And my feelings and opinion for him diminished and his grew--his feelings were intense...I felt contempt and familial tolerance for him. I had come to believe that no two people EVER love one another deeply and truly at the same time. One person is in love, the other is settling, and the one who is settling will either break the other person's heart...or their own, if they stay and try to make it work. So I'd sworn off serious commitments and escalator relationships and the whole idea of marriage, more or less, as an impossible fairy tale.
When I met the man I am with now, I was not SUPER EXCITED, only intrigued and interested. He felt some excitement, but he kept calm. He did not latch onto me like "OMG I've been lonely my whole life and now you're here and you're the body type I like and did you really get your tubes tied and do you like D&D and Douglas Adams and will you go with me to Comic Con holy crap you're my perfect woman let's get married!!!" Had he done any such intense craziness I'd have said, "Excuse me" and walked away. He was thinking that he could not believe how perfect this was, and he was terrified to mess it up, and he was trying to play it cool. He was not desperate, or clingy or needy in any way I could detect.
It took me about 6 months to realize that I was really falling in love with him. We had a "I need to talk to you" date, and I told him that I was really feeling very much in love with him, and this scared me. That I felt very vulnerable. He asked what I meant. I told him that in my experience, when I felt this way, it was a pretty sure thing that my partner didn't, and that I was in for some heartbreak. But that I also felt that it was worth it anyhow, and I wanted him to know that I would understand, however things went. And you know what he said? "I think I feel the same way that you do."
Well. I'm not going to deny a good thing when the Universe sees fit to grant it. Fairy tale or no.
But not everyone feels like they've found The One in the first hour, day, or week of knowing a complete stranger. And I think that what Timberline and I both think here, is that being that invested in someone you do not really know yet, is projecting your fantasies on them, it's not real. Whether you are projecting the hope that this person is your perfect partner, or you are projecting the fear that they're lying and putting you off. You don't KNOW enough yet to be deciding such things.
what exactly is controlling? Since our date on 10/11 i have sent her 4 texts and made one phone call which she didnt answer but it was 12am so I didnt make a big deal. I just noticed that our communication is not the same as it was before we met and if she is not all that interested then it''s not need to keep responding to my texts. These are the things that make me think she is not that eager to see me again but I could be wrong
1. she has not initiated contact at all since the date.
2. we never went two full days without chatting with each other
3. No telephone conversations at all since the date
So I am not going to ask someone out again over text so I am waiting for her to feel like herself again so I can text her and then set up a time to talk on the phone to discuss the next date
I am not saying that a man needs to spin plates, avoid attachments, and not express his feelings. And saying that you have a great time with someone and like them and enjoy their company, or you're enthusiastic about a date, that's not bad. This isn't what I mean.
I hear you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But not everyone feels like they've found The One in the first hour, day, or week of knowing a complete stranger. And I think that what Timberline and I both think here, is that being that invested in someone you do not really know yet, is projecting your fantasies on them, it's not real. Whether you are projecting the hope that this person is your perfect partner, or you are projecting the fear that they're lying and putting you off. You don't KNOW enough yet to be deciding such things.
But I see a world of difference between projecting fantasies and acknowledging feelings. I am not advocating love bombing. I have not advocating wedding proposals to someone you don't know. But I see a world of difference between projecting fantasies and acknowledging feelings.
That inner dialogue that some of us have of our thoughts and feelings is something you should share, so the person you are on a date with senses that you are emotionally checking in with them in the dating process. So if you are nervous, you share that, if you are excited they agreed to go to dinner, you share that, if you think they are attractive you share that. If you are having a bad day, you share that Sharing that inner dialogue creates and builds rapport.
what exactly is controlling? Since our date on 10/11 i have sent her 4 texts and made one phone call which she didnt answer but it was 12am so I didnt make a big deal. I just noticed that our communication is not the same as it was before we met and if she is not all that interested then it''s not need to keep responding to my texts. These are the things that make me think she is not that eager to see me again but I could be wrong
1. she has not initiated contact at all since the date.
2. we never went two full days without chatting with each other
3. No telephone conversations at all since the date
So I am not going to ask someone out again over text so I am waiting for her to feel like herself again so I can text her and then set up a time to talk on the phone to discuss the next date
It's been 10+ days. I think some people on here are giving you false hope.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
