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I can't help but wonder if the internet hasn't made people lose their people skills. If one doesn't know how to interact, flirt, relate to, and attract people in real life, why expect success with online dating? I can see why they might get discouraged and stop trying.
I wonder how my Grandma managed to meet four men to marry when there was no internet - LOL. Sadly they didn't live long. Amazing that she didn't just give up.
Is this a real question? Are you a millennial? People used to go out, have hobbies outside the house, connect through friends or work, go to bars/restaurants/pubs, stores, sports, events.
It was way easier to find someone before the internet existed because you got what you saw, not someone pretending to be someone they are not, behind a screen. Unsocial weirdos and creeps weren't able to fool you through the internet.
All I can say (especially since I'm not in the scenario described in the OP) is that just in my marriages, to say nothing of people I dated otherwise, I know how BAD it can be to have a man in my life. And I know how GOOD it can be. And the one I'm happy with, does not seem to me, to be a common sort of man in a lot of ways.
But I felt like, unless/until a man crossed a line of abuse or cheating, I was expected to be loyal and stay. A woman wanting to just have a happy life was selfish, shallow, immoral. Stuff I put up with when it wasn't good... Being publicly humiliated when he was upset and wanted to make a scene about something. Being expected to work a full time job and still also do the huge majority of work at home (cooking, cleaning, care of the kids and eventually the cat) while he would work full time and "need" time to "relax" playing video games in the evenings and weekends. Being constantly under surveillance about where I was and who I might have interacted with because of insecurity on his part. He made messes I had to either live with or clean up myself, because he didn't care if the house was clean or not. He expected me to listen whenever he wanted to unload about anything and yet he didn't want to listen to me. I had to care about his feelings always, and felt like mine were only cared about when he found I wasn't acting in a way he wanted me to. Sex was better for him than for me, and yet I'd get lectured often about how I didn't provide enough of it, or do enough to make it more fun for him (like wearing lingerie etc.) He could get high or drunk when he wanted, I had to be always the sober adult, in case someone had to drive somewhere or handle an emergency. I've heard a number of men speak in utterly condescending tones to their wives around other people. I've seen far more relationships than not, where the woman would have been a LOT happier on her own, free to live as she pleased and answer to no one, clean up after only herself, and rely on friends to meet her emotional needs and toys or hookups for any physical ones. And I know this entire paragraph sounds like just another anti-ex-husband rant, but I'm trying to say that I've seen SO MANY instances of these things, I just don't even feel like they're uncommon.
And that's before you even consider the guys who just want to get laid, or who flake out or whatever.
So you tell me, if a woman looks around and sees a whole heap of this...why WOULD she want to get mixed up in it? What do we get out of it that is worth dealing with that stuff? I was pretty convinced after my divorce that I'd never have a cohabitating (let alone married) sort of relationship again. The fact that I changed my mind, I can only say that I think my husband is a really special guy.
And when men complain about women being bitter from past experiences, you know, it just sounds to me like, "Nah, can't try with her, she's onto us. I won't be able to trick her into thinking she's getting a good deal and then crap all over her life. Better look for a more naive woman who can be fooled."
Regardless of gender, the more common it becomes for people in middle age and older to be in the dating market the more common it will be for many of them to decide they've just had enough. It's bad enough when you're young and I can't imagine it gets any better when you're older.
In the Pew Study one of the biggest problems that women had was finding men who meet their expectations. I was hoping to get women to kind of unpack what means in more concrete terms. Is this mostly educational mismatches, you went to college or grad school, but can't find guys to date who are as educated as you or is it something else?
The Pew study also said a majority of women received some type of harassing behavior while dating ranging from receiving unwanted explicit text, being pressured for sex or having someone share a sexually explicit text of them without their consent. I was wondering when women are dealing with this bad behavior is it more frequent in relationships started online (do you think on line dating enables this behavior) or are a-holes just a-holes?
Apparently 42% women have been pressured for sex and 35% have been touched in a way that made them uncomfortable. Are 35% of women being groped in areas traditionally covered by underwear or are the guys socially miscalibrated much earlier in the process? Are guys trying to hold hands, kiss you, maybe put their arms around your waist or run their fingers through your hair too quickly for you? Or are they skipping that process entirely and moving straight to groping areas covered by underwear?
What is your preferred way of handling consent here? Do you trust most guys to read social cues or would you prefer a more explicit discussion of consent? If so when in the process?
All I can say (especially since I'm not in the scenario described in the OP) is that just in my marriages, to say nothing of people I dated otherwise, I know how BAD it can be to have a man in my life. And I know how GOOD it can be. And the one I'm happy with, does not seem to me, to be a common sort of man in a lot of ways.
But I felt like, unless/until a man crossed a line of abuse or cheating, I was expected to be loyal and stay. A woman wanting to just have a happy life was selfish, shallow, immoral. Stuff I put up with when it wasn't good... Being publicly humiliated when he was upset and wanted to make a scene about something. Being expected to work a full time job and still also do the huge majority of work at home (cooking, cleaning, care of the kids and eventually the cat) while he would work full time and "need" time to "relax" playing video games in the evenings and weekends. Being constantly under surveillance about where I was and who I might have interacted with because of insecurity on his part. He made messes I had to either live with or clean up myself, because he didn't care if the house was clean or not. He expected me to listen whenever he wanted to unload about anything and yet he didn't want to listen to me. I had to care about his feelings always, and felt like mine were only cared about when he found I wasn't acting in a way he wanted me to. Sex was better for him than for me, and yet I'd get lectured often about how I didn't provide enough of it, or do enough to make it more fun for him (like wearing lingerie etc.) He could get high or drunk when he wanted, I had to be always the sober adult, in case someone had to drive somewhere or handle an emergency. I've heard a number of men speak in utterly condescending tones to their wives around other people. I've seen far more relationships than not, where the woman would have been a LOT happier on her own, free to live as she pleased and answer to no one, clean up after only herself, and rely on friends to meet her emotional needs and toys or hookups for any physical ones. And I know this entire paragraph sounds like just another anti-ex-husband rant, but I'm trying to say that I've seen SO MANY instances of these things, I just don't even feel like they're uncommon.
I agree. They're absolutely NOT uncommon.
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And that's before you even consider the guys who just want to get laid, or who flake out or whatever.
So you tell me, if a woman looks around and sees a whole heap of this...why WOULD she want to get mixed up in it? What do we get out of it that is worth dealing with that stuff? I was pretty convinced after my divorce that I'd never have a cohabitating (let alone married) sort of relationship again. The fact that I changed my mind, I can only say that I think my husband is a really special guy.
Unfortunately, there are people out there who 'got lucky'...and found someone who's 'worthy'...but they don't seem to consider that there's a whole mess of crap out there. Fortunately, you've had the experience of both worlds, and you're able to understand that the crap out there is more common than we think.
[QUOT]And when men complain about women being bitter from past experiences, you know, it just sounds to me like, "Nah, can't try with her, she's onto us. I won't be able to trick her into thinking she's getting a good deal and then crap all over her life. Better look for a more naive woman who can be fooled."[/quote]
HA! After being married for a few months, I asked my husband why he was so attentive...supportive...loving etc., BEFORE we married...and now, all that is gone. I'll never forget his answer.
He said, with a condescending smirk at my 'ignorance', "A guy can't keep up that CHARADE forever."
In the Pew Study one of the biggest problems that women had was finding men who meet their expectations.
And it wouldn't surprise me if a different Pew study found that men believed that women's expectations were "too high".
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I was hoping to get women to kind of unpack what means in more concrete terms. Is this mostly educational mismatches, you went to college or grad school, but can't find guys to date who are as educated as you or is it something else?
I think it's more a mismatch regarding emotional maturity. A man who has a college education can still send a D pic.
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The Pew study also said a majority of women received some type of harassing behavior while dating ranging from receiving unwanted explicit text, being pressured for sex or having someone share a sexually explicit text of them without their consent. I was wondering when women are dealing with this bad behavior is it more frequent in relationships started online (do you think on line dating enables this behavior) or are a-holes just a-holes?
Some men are simply a-holes, whether they're trying OLD or IRL. Maybe more common OLD simply because there are more available options.
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Apparently 42% women have been pressured for sex and 35% have been touched in a way that made them uncomfortable. Are 35% of women being groped in areas traditionally covered by underwear or are the guys socially miscalibrated much earlier in the process?
Plenty of guys try to "read the signs" and FAIL ROYALLY. You see it all over these forums. My goodness...if a woman is flirting with him, it means she WANTS him. It's as if some men have this...this...this "How To" manual that applies to ALL women.
There's a lot of subtext in communication, but unfortunately, some men tend to believe that the subtext can ONLY mean ONE thing...
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Are guys trying to hold hands, kiss you, maybe put their arms around your waist or run their fingers through your hair too quickly for you? Or are they skipping that process entirely and moving straight to groping areas covered by underwear?
Much of the time, yes, to BOTH questions. He puts his arm around her. She doesn't flinch. He's thinking, "She LIKES this! YAY!" SHE'S thinking, "I'm FROZEN. I can't MOVE. I want to tell him to STOP, but the word 'stop' is stuck in my throat!" Many women are brought up to 'be POLITE'. Telling a man to 'stop touching her'...and MEAN it, seems "impolite" to some.
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What is your preferred way of handling consent here? Do you trust most guys to read social cues or would you prefer a more explicit discussion of consent? If so when in the process?
Some guys KNOW the 'social cues', yet ignore them because of their ego. They don't WANT to believe that there's a woman 'out there' who doesn't want his advances.
Speaking of 'consent'...
Back in the 1970's, I used to live in New York, close to West Point. I had a few female friends who used to frequent a popular bar in the area. The gals used to love going there, because the West Pointer's they would meet seemed to have a certain respect for women (at least, in public, lol!). If they wanted to hold her hand, they would ASK, "May I hold your hand, PLEASE?" If she said, "No.", the guy wouldn't just ditch her.
The thing about consent is how men (especially) react when they DON'T get it.
I did not have time to review all of the information on the Pew Research website. However, from the chart at this link I noticed that the single groups least likely to be looking are age: 75+ and marital status: widowed. These are demographics where women greatly outnumber men. I wonder if this doesn't largely explain the headline disparity between men and women.
For the single graph which controls for age (18-39), the looking/not looking percentages are 67/33 for men and 61/39 for women. Much closer.
Your original question stands for the "not looking" crowd of both sexes. Just wanted to comment on this.
In the Pew Study one of the biggest problems that women had was finding men who meet their expectations. I was hoping to get women to kind of unpack what means in more concrete terms. Is this mostly educational mismatches, you went to college or grad school, but can't find guys to date who are as educated as you or is it something else?
I think I covered a lot of it. I needed a man who acts like an actual adult, because I sure as heck am going to. But that leads me to something I often do, which is "flip the script." I know some seriously immature women, too. I'm thinking of one, who has that whole "cray cray but super hot" thing going on...difference seems to be in my opinion, that there are men who prize her for her good qualities enough to be willing to live with the drama she generates. As a bi woman, I was actually attracted to her and I like her a lot, but I can't cope with someone who tells me that she no longer buys nice or expensive home decor because she'll inevitably smash it in a rage. WHOA. Nope. No amount of hot, funny, or exciting can make up for that. A few years later, she's now engaged. And she's had men after her since I've known her, not just for hookups, but offering serious relationships really fast. I guess some women will go for hot bad boys, but past a certain point, we've learned our lesson. A fully grown adult woman who isn't a train wreck herself, might sleep with a cute bad boy, but it'll be a fleeting affair if that.
Ya just don't take a wolf cub home and expect it not to pee on the floor.
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The Pew study also said a majority of women received some type of harassing behavior while dating ranging from receiving unwanted explicit text, being pressured for sex or having someone share a sexually explicit text of them without their consent. I was wondering when women are dealing with this bad behavior is it more frequent in relationships started online (do you think on line dating enables this behavior) or are a-holes just a-holes?
Apparently 42% women have been pressured for sex and 35% have been touched in a way that made them uncomfortable. Are 35% of women being groped in areas traditionally covered by underwear or are the guys socially miscalibrated much earlier in the process? Are guys trying to hold hands, kiss you, maybe put their arms around your waist or run their fingers through your hair too quickly for you? Or are they skipping that process entirely and moving straight to groping areas covered by underwear?
What is your preferred way of handling consent here? Do you trust most guys to read social cues or would you prefer a more explicit discussion of consent? If so when in the process?
I strongly suspect that in the 35% are a variety of situations, from gropey handsey guys, to those who just crowd us, corner us, loom in with their bodies, put arms around us and move in too close, touch a leg or something....it's not just the underwear areas in that figure, I would bet. But it was more than touching a hand or arm, probably. If it made them uncomfortable. Though for some, unexpected physical contact is very uncomfortable, and they might be part of the statistic, too.
I prefer to have men err on the side of asking for consent. Even for a hug, put the arms out and say, "hug?" before doing it. "Would you be comfortable sharing sexy pictures?" is a fair question to ask. The very notion of a man making eye contact and saying, "May I?" before touching or kissing me...man, you can craft a whole MOMENT outta that!
I gave up on dating sites nearly 2 years ago after finally meeting someone on a foreign dating site. I was done trying in the U.S. It was no longer worth all the effort. I found a woman serious about a relationship and marriage, so finally I'm moving to the next phase of life again. If by some chance it doesn't work out, I won't bother dating anymore. Its not worth it, especially where I live. Waste of time.
The thing about consent is how men (especially) react when they DON'T get it.
Could you unpack that a little more? Are you just alluding to rape here being an awful experience or are you hinting at something else that frustrates you about the dating process that I am missing?
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