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It's interesting that a woman being uncomfortable hugging you, a stranger, turns you off. I think if a first date has gone well, a hug or kiss at the end seems perfectly normal, but to lead with it?
Discomfort from the other party early in dating is a turn off for me. They might have very valid reasons and I respect that, but I usually walk away.
That has served me well in my life. I don't have any of the angst, anger, cynicism about dating that some other men have, because I am able to spot discomfort on the part of a woman and then get turned off by it. While I also notice where the woman I'm interested in is on the same page as me, and that turns me on.
This all happens intuitively to me, but recently I have come to really appreciate it's effects. One problem some men have is that they don't understand boundaries in dating, and I mean they don't understand boundaries either way. They have no boundaries for how they want the woman to treat them, and they struggle to deal with the boundaries the woman has for how she wants to be treated. I have strong boundaries both ways, I will respect the boundaries of a woman, but I also understand how I want to be treated and will walk away if that doesn't happen. It is a wonderfully freeing place to be.
And how I want to be treated on a first date is with warmth right from the start, and an openness to get to know each other - intellectually, emotionally and physically. So if I am interested in her and she is not treating me with enough warmth, I get turned off.
I used to have a cousin, who was my grandparent's age. Whenever we would visit, he would ALWAYS pull me in for a hug, and one hand would ALWAYS go to my breast, and the other hand on my back, making it difficult to pull away.
Yeah...I have issues with touching too soon. LOL
I am sorry you went through this.
At the same time though you are exactly the type of person that I want to ask, what would be the best way to introduce physical touch into a relationship with you, so the touch felt welcomed and not intrusive? With the guys who did put you at ease, how did they handle this matter to put you at ease?
At the same time though you are exactly the type of person that I want to ask, what would be the best way to introduce physical touch into a relationship with you, so the touch felt welcomed and not intrusive? With the guys who did put you at ease, how did they handle this matter to put you at ease?
Well...I'm 'OK' with conventional norms of touching. Such as on a first date, maybe you'd help me put my coat on, and touch me...or at the end of a date, a short hug. I'm not going to bite anyone's head off over those kind of things. Or, in a very crowded place, holding my hand to guide and thread us to a particular spot. (Although, when you mentioned putting a hand on a hip to lead the way...I kind of cringed, but then decided maybe I'm not picturing it right.) If we're going dancing...touching is expected, and I'm ok with that.
I DON'T like what I call 'proprietary touching' when I don't even know you yet. It makes me feel like you (and I use 'you' in the universal sense...not YOU Shelato...just clarifying) think you have some claim on me...that you have a right to my body that I didn't give. And I don't like THAT from men OR women. It makes me feel very vulnerable, and not in a good way.
Now...let's say we're on a date, and we're having a good time, and we're laughing, and talking, and we're both making lots of eye contact, and I say something like "That's an interesting scar on your arm" as I run my finger over it...you can take that as a hint that I'm liking you. If we're sitting in a booth, both of us leaning in to each other, and you maybe brush my hair and compliment me...that's nice, and I'll know you're in to me.
Like I said a few posts up I think...I'm not out and out against touching...I've had babies after all. LOL But I need the groundwork to happen first.
Many years ago, I dated a guy who I met in a bar. For probably an hour, we just sat at the bar and talked. At one point, we were talking about sports medicine, and he was telling me about a sports injury he had received in the past, and he ASKED me if he could show me, on MY leg, (my ankle) where and how the injury had occurred. I have no doubt it was a pick up move...but I was down with it, because we'd talked for quite awhile, and he wasn't being overtly sexual, but I knew he was in to me. He laid the groundwork.
I used to have a cousin, who was my grandparent's age. Whenever we would visit, he would ALWAYS pull me in for a hug, and one hand would ALWAYS go to my breast, and the other hand on my back, making it difficult to pull away.
Yeah...I have issues with touching too soon. LOL
I have an ex who’s uncle ( in his 60’s) was a hugger and a Klingon. If he got ahold of me, I’d practically have to pry him off with a crowbar. It got to the point where when he come in for a hug I’d cross my arms across my chest. He’d never actually touch my breast, but he’d squeeze me so hard it felt like they were going to pop out my back.
I have an ex who’s uncle ( in his 60’s) was a hugger and a Klingon. If he got ahold of me, I’d practically have to pry him off with a crowbar. It got to the point where when he come in for a hug I’d cross my arms across my chest. He’d never actually touch my breast, but he’d squeeze me so hard it felt like they were going to pop out my back.
And if you say or do anything, they always have the excuse of "What? I'm just being friendly/affectionate/etc. She misunderstood my intentions."
Well...I'm 'OK' with conventional norms of touching. Such as on a first date, maybe you'd help me put my coat on, and touch me...or at the end of a date, a short hug. I'm not going to bite anyone's head off over those kind of things. Or, in a very crowded place, holding my hand to guide and thread us to a particular spot. (Although, when you mentioned putting a hand on a hip to lead the way...I kind of cringed, but then decided maybe I'm not picturing it right.) If we're going dancing...touching is expected, and I'm ok with that.
I DON'T like what I call 'proprietary touching' when I don't even know you yet. It makes me feel like you (and I use 'you' in the universal sense...not YOU Shelato...just clarifying) think you have some claim on me...that you have a right to my body that I didn't give. And I don't like THAT from men OR women. It makes me feel very vulnerable, and not in a good way.
Now...let's say we're on a date, and we're having a good time, and we're laughing, and talking, and we're both making lots of eye contact, and I say something like "That's an interesting scar on your arm" as I run my finger over it...you can take that as a hint that I'm liking you. If we're sitting in a booth, both of us leaning in to each other, and you maybe brush my hair and compliment me...that's nice, and I'll know you're in to me.
Like I said a few posts up I think...I'm not out and out against touching...I've had babies after all. LOL But I need the groundwork to happen first.
Many years ago, I dated a guy who I met in a bar. For probably an hour, we just sat at the bar and talked. At one point, we were talking about sports medicine, and he was telling me about a sports injury he had received in the past, and he ASKED me if he could show me, on MY leg, (my ankle) where and how the injury had occurred. I have no doubt it was a pick up move...but I was down with it, because we'd talked for quite awhile, and he wasn't being overtly sexual, but I knew he was in to me. He laid the groundwork.
I guess the real reason I started this thread was to figure out if my notions of the norms of conventional touching were the same as others. I think it was from dancing that I had this impression that putting hands on shoulders and hips just wasn't that major of an imposition on women, and in the specific case of dancing where a woman has agreed to dance with you it it may not be that much of an imposition. But this is a different context too. You haven't expressly agreed to dance with me, so you haven't agreed to that type of touch either.
Ultimately if I am on a date, my goal is to put a woman increasingly at ease, so I so appreciate that you were willing to share the things that I do, that might have made you uncomfortable if I had done them to you. This has been helpful to me, thank you!
Well, thank you for listening and being receptive to other thoughts on the subject.
And...understand, I'VE had some bad experiences, so my thoughts are maybe not the same as other people's.
You seem like a respectful man and intelligent man. I appreciate you listening.
But honestly that was also why I wanted to hear from someone like you. Both because this happened to you, but also because you were willing to talk about it. One of the things I have been thinking about is that a lot more women have dealt with a lot more sketchy behavior than I initially assumed.
Lots of women who have dealt with bad male behavior, for whatever reason, don't feel comfortable talking about it and I understand that. But one of the unintended consequences of that is a failure on the part of people like me is a tendency to underestimate the frequency that women are dealing with this stuff. But I know that this is happening a lot more than I initially thought, so especially in areas that don't require a lot of additional work on my part to make someone else feel more comfortable, I am trying to do that.
YOu kind of have to feel it out...it's situational. I kissed a woman on a first date after having met her online. It was just a quick kiss on the lips, no make-out session. I guess it was because we developed something over the phone before meeting.
It depends on the circumstances. I’ve had sex on the first date a number of times. I’ve had dates that ended in a platonic hug.
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I feel ya! Lol
