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There are already threads on common courtesy and frankly I find that the principles of the two go hand in hand, that's how the discussion, like societal norms and expectations, evolved.
I agree chivalry is/was directly levelled at men and expected of men but as I've said I don't see it being relevant in today's society so much and the onus is on the individual to respond graciously when they encounter it from either males or females, in other words courtesy should be expected of both men and women and the specifics of chivalry as directly pertaining to men are not really relevent in today's society.
If one goes through the code of conduct relating to chivalry and the expectations placed on men there are elements that are no longer relevent in today's society and there are also elements that should be considered as desirable behaviour by all people. That's evolution.
Props for using the word Onus in a sentence. Negative marks for using four smiley faces in one post.
Women do, but men ARE stronger. Physically. Across every part of the physical spectrum. There are exceptions (there always are, in a world of 6 billion people), but generally men develop larger more powerful muscles than women. Even the strongest woman in the world would get beaten to a pulp if she were to try to play in the NFL.
That being said, men have a certain larger responsibility to use their added bulk or strength to help those that might be weaker, even if the weaker party could do it themselves. HOWEVER (and this is what us guys are trying to say), a lot of women get offended by this. Sure, a woman could lift up a 50lb flowerpot and move it to another location. But if a guy was there, he would probably offer to do it. Now, if this were 100 years ago, obviously nobody would have a problem with it. But nowadays, some women would snap and go 'No! I can do it myself!" Not all women, but still, some very militant feminists are, I think, ruining it for everyone.
It's not just militant feminists. Did it ever occur to you that given how some man have abused their physical advantage that some women simply do not need reminding that they wouldn't win in a battle? You can level this argument as to why some women don't respond well to chivalry at feminists if you want but I'd say a look at the abhorent behaviours of other men wouldn't be a bad place to look either.
I still like a door opened. I still like the offer of assistance. I still like being asked an opinion. I like being helped with the laundry. I like having a meal cooked now and again. I like being pampered.
Please! Sifuphil, chivalry used to mean something totally DIFFERENT from what you're thinking.
What, are you making believe you're ME now? I'M the one that stated that chivalry is much more than how you treat a woman. YOU stated "chivalry (treating women a certain way because 'that's how it should be')" - that is just a minuscule part of chivalry. And like most things in life, looking at something with a magnifying glass causes you to miss the whole equation.
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If by 'real' you mean 'whatever sifuphil wants it to mean' than I guess that yeah, it's still alive and kicking.
I've spent 38 years studying and practicing chivalry.
HOW old are you?
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Chivalry does not necessarily encompass ALL of the realm of 'simply being a gentleman.'
Once again, that's what I already said.
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The OP was not: "Are all gentlemen dead?" Or better yet "Where have all the cowboys gone?" It was asking about chivalry.
Strangely enough, I knew that.
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Gentlemen: A hereditary elitism was bound up with the concept, and gentlemen were expected to act as moral guides to the rest of society. They were to:
cultivate themselves morally;
participate in the correct performance of ritual;
show filial piety and loyalty where these are due; and
Well, if you're going to quote Wiki at me, then I'm afraid I'm powerless in the face of your in-depth research materials...but here's a hint: I think what you're describing falls more under the purview of ancient Confucianism. If that's the case then please realize that, of all the Oriental belief systems, Confucianism was the MOST antagonistic toward women - hence, NOT what you and I would commonly think of as a "gentleman".
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This would be a gentleman, what you are describing. Chivalry is actually in some cases rather negative towards women. I think either the OP and yourself didn't quite understand the definition of the word chivalry, or you believe that it no longer means what it used to mean. Either way, google some history of the subject first, then tell me the 'real one' is 'alive and kicking.'
If you have the time, check out posts #10 and #18 in this thread. I think I've presented a brief yet accurate synopsis of historical chivalry.
"Real" chivalry is alive and kicking. As I alluded to earlier, it's misunderstandings of exactly what chivalry WAS and IS that lead to discussions like this.
I've spent 38 years studying and practicing chivalry.
HOW old are you?
SO the day you were born you started holding the door open for your mom?? Or are you older than 38, but one day you decided to start studying and practicing chivalry? I'm sorry, but as far as I know there is not a degree one can get for either chivalry or common courtesy, but you front like you have one. I was pointing out that everyone bandies this word around but there is no common definition for what it means.
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Originally Posted by Autumn07
Is chivalry dead?
I went out with a guy last night who I don't want to see again but he didn't even have the decentcy to walk me to my car. Why are guys like this?
I swear most guys that I've gone out with haven't walked me to my car.
I think that is so rude. I just would think any guy who was raised right should walk you to your car whether he likes you or not, just by being a gentlemen.
....And what many men answered (correctly) in response to the OP, was that men have been taught that there may be backlash if you do something such as walking a woman to her car, or pushing her chair in when she sits down, or whatever. That's all they were saying, is that they can understand where this guy is coming from, and they explained why some guys are hesitant to do this. Then all hell broke loose, because nobody can let a guy just answer the OP.
I think the first response to this OP was the best, by Jefetio:
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Originally Posted by Jefetio
Did you walk him to his car?
OK, OK, I get it, women want men to be different. Except, you know, the things that they want them to be the same at. What women really want is equality, except when it's time to pay the bill and make her feel "special".
I know it's frustrating when you are out there, trying to find a gentleman, and it's becoming harder and harder to find. If it's any consolation, it's damn near impossible to find a lady.
Finally, to answer your question, chivalry is not dead. It's just dead in the west, where gender roles have been abandoned, because traditions are oppressive.
And why should a man walk you to your car moonshadow, when women are just as strong as men? Since you will not agree to that, there must be some other reason that a woman is not tasked with walking a man to his vehicle?
SO the day you were born you started holding the door open for your mom?? Or are you older than 38, but one day you decided to start studying and practicing chivalry?
Well, I can't speak for Phil in particular, or rather shouldn't, though he does seem quite the gentleman. But I do know that as the mother of three sons, children do learn by their first year to have at least some respectful boundaries (such as not pulling Mommy's hair--etc.), and they do--or mine do, at least--start doing generally helpful things. For example, my littlest one by the time he started walking was trying to "help" me clean. And my middle guy at four brings in groceries (he takes the bags out of my hands), helps me cook, takes the laundry basket out of my hands and carries it, etc. Perhaps not technically chivalry, and rather more just generally "helping," but yes, children do in fact observe and learn, and often try to accomplish, a generally polite, observant, caring and "I'll take this off your hands" attitude virtually from birth--at least if they see the parents doing the same.
That's probably the most important part.
My husband and I do caring things for each other and the kids see it and they have done the same certainly by the close of their first year, as far as their capabilities went at that age. And yes, that's the first stem to being either a gentleman or a lady. At least as far as I've seen things go. Just my $.02. For people for whom this helpfulness and observation doesn't come naturally, perhaps they just weren't raised in a type of environment where people were gentle and kind to each other, who knows.
ETA: I should add that again...it does work both ways! The boys (I'm talking about the two littlest ones) love to do things for their father, too. It's a general feeling of, "I have the time, ability or whatever to do this and it will make your day just one degree easier. So I'll do it." That is chivalry, today's chivalry (obviously in the 14th century nobody was holding a car door for anybody :P), and it is indeed an evolution. The whole washing the car, shopping for things for Daddy, etc. that we did the other day went over HUGE with them. And this is pretty big especially for the four-year-old, since he's autistic and doesn't notice the world around him as much. Even he "got it" that it was a good feeling to see Dad have something taken off his shoulders and not have to do it. They were so happy and had a lot of fun. They see me do kind things for their dad and I'm glad, because not only will they grow up being gentlemanly to women, but they will also naturally expect kind treatment from women.
Yes, its generational. Yes, many men are "jaded" towards women and relationships nowadays and have given up on chivalry.
A few years ago, my husband and I were moving, and I picked up a chair (or something similar). My father saw me and was shocked, yelling for me to put that down and not hurt myself. I tried to explain I would not hurt myself but he insisted saying that my husband was much stronger and he should be doing that work not me. My father is from a different generation, a different country. That has alot to do with it as well.
Yes, its generational. Yes, many men are "jaded" towards women and relationships nowadays and have given up on chivalry.
A few years ago, my husband and I were moving, and I picked up a chair (or something similar). My father saw me and was shocked, yelling for me to put that down and not hurt myself. I tried to explain I would not hurt myself but he insisted saying that my husband was much stronger and he should be doing that work not me. My father is from a different generation, a different country. That has alot to do with it as well.
Well, this is a good point, and gives me a new perspective on my mother-in-law. She actually gets me really annoyed with her "I'm so helpless...oh pleeeeeeeeease help me" bit. IMHO--the generations before the recent one or two took "chivalry" to an extreme that wasn't even seen when the real chivalry was going on in the middle ages.
She can't do anything that involves lifting, moving...anything. She makes my father-in-law carry her purse when she's shopping. I think that's...weird. But as stated above, maybe it's just generational. I wouldn't make a man carry my purse! Oh brother! If I'm too weak to carry a purse I'm surely too weak to heave things off a store shelf and into a shopping basket!
Once I was over there helping with their business. My mother-in-law was taking my son out to lunch. The phone rang and my father-in-law picked it up. It was my mother-in-law calling from the garage to say she had left her keys on the kitchen table and he must bring them out to her. The garage and kitchen are attached...she would have had to literally open the dividing door and stick her hand in.
There's chivalry and then there truly is "I'm incredibly helpless in every way"--again, an extreme that was leaned on heavily in the late 40s to early 60s, while America was trying to convince women that they couldn't and shouldn't stray from the home and the washing machine more than ten feet.
As far as "old world" ideas...I don't know; my grandparents came over on a boat, and yes, my grandfather was more apt to say lift a chair as in the example above, but women were surely expected to be able to do quite a few heavy household tasks. But maybe it depends upon the country? I don't know.
SO the day you were born you started holding the door open for your mom??
- Good one!
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Or are you older than 38, but one day you decided to start studying and practicing chivalry?
Yes.
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I'm sorry, but as far as I know there is not a degree one can get for either chivalry or common courtesy, but you front like you have one.
Degrees, although I have several, don't necessarily mean m*rde, especially when it comes to things like chivalry.
No, my training in chivalry started when I began my study of martial arts, and it took a different slant when I started choreographing stage combat for Renaissance fairs. But upon reading Jerz's post about Moms and Dads shaping the tadpoles, I'd have to agree and say that my father was teaching me chivalry years before I formally started studying it.
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I was pointing out that everyone bandies this word around but there is no common definition for what it means.
Actually there is, or at least one that is generally accepted as the definition by folks "in the know". But I agree - in fact, with all due respect to the OP, she might have been a bit more on-point if she had said "Are manners dead" or some such, but then we wouldn't have had this lively chat.
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....And what many men answered (correctly) in response to the OP, was that men have been taught that there may be backlash if you do something such as walking a woman to her car, or pushing her chair in when she sits down, or whatever. That's all they were saying, is that they can understand where this guy is coming from, and they explained why some guys are hesitant to do this. Then all hell broke loose, because nobody can let a guy just answer the OP.
Perhaps because, especially in InternetLand, if you don't define your terms you might as well just whistle into the wind.
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I think the first response to this OP was the best, by Jefetio:
And why should a man walk you to your car moonshadow, when women are just as strong as men? Since you will not agree to that, there must be some other reason that a woman is not tasked with walking a man to his vehicle?
See, that misses the concept and spirit of chivalry, hence it's not a proper response to the OP.
...or am I just a cranky old (38+) man who's held one too many doors?
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I'M the one that stated that chivalry is much more than how you treat a woman. YOU stated "chivalry (treating women a certain way because 'that's how it should be')" - that is just a minuscule part of chivalry. And like most things in life, looking at something with a magnifying glass causes you to miss the whole equation. 
