Do people actually enjoy sex outside of a committed relationship? (male, husbands)
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I think that can happen and if it does, its not the person's fault if they are just not into that person. I have experienced that as well, where something about a guy I couldn't have known until we had sex, was just a deal breaker. It wasn't his fault or my fault, just an incompatibility issue.
But there are situations where one person is intentionally deceiving another person in a self serving or even malicious way.
I dated a guy who told me stories of being a college football player, like really elaborate stories. Turns out he never even went to college. He dropped out of high school. I would not have gotten involved with him had I known that.
It took awhile for me to piece things together and discover he had lied about so much I truly had no idea any more what was true. Couldn't trust a word that came out of his mouth after because he was a good liar and it was literally impossible to know when he was lying or not.
Who does that? He obviously had something mentally off with him because normal people don't tell elaborate lies. And he was doing it to get me into bed and into a sort of relationship, but on false pretenses.
So it happens. That's more the thing I am referring to rather than people just finding they are not compatible even if they began with good intentions.
Yikes. I have caught men in lies and exaggerations, but it sounds like this fellow was boasting a bit. Nothing turns me off faster than that. Truly, the more a man talks about his achievements, the more I recoil. Show me who you are, not what you've done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euskalherria
They should have gotten into the shower first - always a good idea.
Learned that one loooong ago from a Redd Foxx stage routine - and, no, not going into specifics.
"Let your mate hear you in the bathroom with the water running..."
Thank you (and Google and YouTube) for that laugh.
I probably should have been turned off but the stories were presented more like entertaining anecdotes.
Like "Just listen to this wild thing that happened to me while I was playing college football at FSU...you won't believe this!"
And I was entertained by it, and it rang true. Turns out it was likely made up though he never admitted to lying. I just couldn't find evidence it was true. Who knows maybe it was but he was talking about appearing on the news and stuff so there should something about that to be found I would guess.
My father attended a top tier private college on an athletic scholarship so I am used to hearing that kinda thing and in itself didn't seem farfetched. It just seemed entertaining and familiar to me more than boastful bragging.
I enjoy sharing unusual anecdotes about life with people and saw it as nothing more than that.
But perhaps from now on the telling of strange tales should be yet another red flag to add to the arsenal. /sigh
My "no thank you, no matter how handsome you are" red flags are going on about sports (is he Al Bundy who peaked with a touchdown?), money, house, car, collections and possessions, education. It is vain, and vain men are almost always terrible lovers.
Yes, if all a person wants is an anonymous roll in the hay, a ONS, then it probably won't matter much if the other person is a psychopath or not.
If you are only after a ONS and don't want anything else, then the thing that I am talking about doesn't apply.
I am talking about a more nuanced situation. Its not so binary, like we are either going to have a one and done ONS, or we are going to get married. Often what happens in relationships, even casual ones involving casual sex, is that it becomes an ongoing thing, until it fizzles out or leads to something more committed. At least that is how it has been for me.
And I am usually going into it thinking, "Well I don't know this person that well yet but I like what I know so far, so lets give this a try." We are not committed yet nor do we know if we want to be, but its within the realm of possibility.
Now, imagine the other person is going into it misrepresenting themselves, what they are looking for. They are LIEING, which means that we are entering our casual relationship based on DECEPTION.
That is what is wrong, and that is what I am talking about in this situation.
The person who was lied to is not to blame for it. Its not realistic to go through life assuming everything someone tells you is a lie. We can't function as a society without being able to trust other people. When you go to a doctor, you trust the doctor is giving you an accurate diagnosis and accurate medications, right? There are quacks out there and we can read reviews and check out their credentials and stuff to minimize that possibility, but at some point, you have to take a leap of faith and believe what the people around you tell you. Otherwise you will become a paranoid neurotic automatically assuming everyone is a liar.
I think maybe the things we are both advocating are not necessarily incompatible, we just come at it from different angles. You have an angle that is very much "Take accountability for the things that happen to you." While my angle is more "Understand that bad things will happen to good people no matter what, and be educated on how to lesson the risks, but don't get so hung up on self-blame. Sometimes it IS the other person who was in the wrong and we just got stuck in their cross hairs."
Hey, first I want to say that I continue discussing with you because I find this stuff really interesting, Moongirl. I know I seem argumentative sometimes. I am (I swear!) not really trying to persuade anyone to get on board with my way of thinking, I'm more just wanting to be understood. I know that I hold some unusual positions that just plain do not work for everyone. I think that there is a small area where some stuff overlaps (for instance I don't think it's good for a person's happiness to obsess over stuff that has upset them, like find a way to get yourself in a better place and learn what you can from the past, but don't let it define you or continue to repeat-traumatize you if someone did you wrong, try not to get stuck in analysis paralysis and all that.) But also I know that some of that stuff is easier said than done!
And I was not really pointing at ONS with strangers. I wasn't really into that, at least I don't see it that way. But while I need to get to know someone somewhat and I do want to feel enthusiastically interested in them, I also feel there is a big spectrum of trust. I've had "casual" partners that would not be considered for "relationships" because I could not trust them to be an important part of my life. Needing to know that someone is really trustworthy and won't lie to me for instance...OK, lie about what, and how much does that need to matter? If they will never get a key to my home, never be in a position where I need to invest a lot of trust in them, and they are more like a friend I have some sexytimes with for a few months and then transition out of my innermost circle, then I don't necessarily care if they tell me tall tales. I believe myself to be reasonably good at picking up on it when someone is being dishonest (not 100% by a long shot of course)...but I don't always care. I don't always need truth. I think I am more curious about what it is that motivates them to lie. If they're doing it because they are ashamed of something in their real life history that doesn't actually affect me, or to seem more interesting, I will probably let it slide because it probably doesn't matter to me. If they are trying to manipulate me for money or gain, I'll probably wise up and kick them to the curb and slam some boundaries in place. Of course I got more wary about certain kinds of dishonesty after my Ex. He told a ton of lies, many of which I did get a vibe about but he never admitted the truth until the end for some reason. But he covered for it (still does) by telling everyone how very honest he is, how much he hates liars and lies, how he "can't" pull off a lie, he claims to just not have it in him. That might be the biggest lie of them all. (EDIT: I think I'd have rejected your sports stories guy because he sounds boring to me lol...that would be unattractive.)
Thing is though, I did not set out upon new connection with a new person, with a bunch of fences already in place regarding what kind of thing it was gonna be. I didn't decide "I want a casual FWB" and then go looking for one. I didn't decide "I want a husband" and then go looking for one. I did at the time want to protect my space against too much incursion by anyone, and keep from being mooched on and such, but I did not expect to know how serious or lasting a connection would be, I was just like "let's see where it evolves, I'm not making assumptions." Because I was actually OK with it if a thing didn't work out for long term. Oh, sure, I did get plenty petulant and whiny and miserable (briefly) over the one guy. But I got over it pretty quick. Even though he did tell me some lies...my need for them to be true was not very high. But you know, it's kinda my own oldest defense mechanism that I've been rocking since childhood. "You can't hurt me, if I don't care." I can enjoy sex without a great deal of emotional investment...building that takes a higher bar, more trust and more time. I can certainly bond and love, but no man gets THAT cheap & easy, he does have to prove himself deserving of it. But even so, there's a limit to how much I rely on anyone. Too many people have let me down. No one gets the power to devastate me anymore. Even if my husband decided tomorrow that he found someone else and vanished, sure I'd be upset and would have to change my life plans, but I have reserves and resources and I would not be destroyed. I don't give that kind of power to anybody anymore.
Is that healthy?
Damned if I know. But it's functional, and so am I. And I'm pretty happy and comfortable in life, so... /shrug I feel like I'm alright.
Hey, first I want to say that I continue discussing with you because I find this stuff really interesting, Moongirl. I know I seem argumentative sometimes. I am (I swear!) not really trying to persuade anyone to get on board with my way of thinking, I'm more just wanting to be understood. I know that I hold some unusual positions that just plain do not work for everyone. I think that there is a small area where some stuff overlaps (for instance I don't think it's good for a person's happiness to obsess over stuff that has upset them, like find a way to get yourself in a better place and learn what you can from the past, but don't let it define you or continue to repeat-traumatize you if someone did you wrong, try not to get stuck in analysis paralysis and all that.) But also I know that some of that stuff is easier said than done!
And I was not really pointing at ONS with strangers. I wasn't really into that, at least I don't see it that way. But while I need to get to know someone somewhat and I do want to feel enthusiastically interested in them, I also feel there is a big spectrum of trust. I've had "casual" partners that would not be considered for "relationships" because I could not trust them to be an important part of my life. Needing to know that someone is really trustworthy and won't lie to me for instance...OK, lie about what, and how much does that need to matter? If they will never get a key to my home, never be in a position where I need to invest a lot of trust in them, and they are more like a friend I have some sexytimes with for a few months and then transition out of my innermost circle, then I don't necessarily care if they tell me tall tales. I believe myself to be reasonably good at picking up on it when someone is being dishonest (not 100% by a long shot of course)...but I don't always care. I don't always need truth. I think I am more curious about what it is that motivates them to lie. If they're doing it because they are ashamed of something in their real life history that doesn't actually affect me, or to seem more interesting, I will probably let it slide because it probably doesn't matter to me. If they are trying to manipulate me for money or gain, I'll probably wise up and kick them to the curb and slam some boundaries in place. Of course I got more wary about certain kinds of dishonesty after my Ex. He told a ton of lies, many of which I did get a vibe about but he never admitted the truth until the end for some reason. But he covered for it (still does) by telling everyone how very honest he is, how much he hates liars and lies, how he "can't" pull off a lie, he claims to just not have it in him. That might be the biggest lie of them all. (EDIT: I think I'd have rejected your sports stories guy because he sounds boring to me lol...that would be unattractive.)
Thing is though, I did not set out upon new connection with a new person, with a bunch of fences already in place regarding what kind of thing it was gonna be. I didn't decide "I want a casual FWB" and then go looking for one. I didn't decide "I want a husband" and then go looking for one. I did at the time want to protect my space against too much incursion by anyone, and keep from being mooched on and such, but I did not expect to know how serious or lasting a connection would be, I was just like "let's see where it evolves, I'm not making assumptions." Because I was actually OK with it if a thing didn't work out for long term. Oh, sure, I did get plenty petulant and whiny and miserable (briefly) over the one guy. But I got over it pretty quick. Even though he did tell me some lies...my need for them to be true was not very high. But you know, it's kinda my own oldest defense mechanism that I've been rocking since childhood. "You can't hurt me, if I don't care." I can enjoy sex without a great deal of emotional investment...building that takes a higher bar, more trust and more time. I can certainly bond and love, but no man gets THAT cheap & easy, he does have to prove himself deserving of it. But even so, there's a limit to how much I rely on anyone. Too many people have let me down. No one gets the power to devastate me anymore. Even if my husband decided tomorrow that he found someone else and vanished, sure I'd be upset and would have to change my life plans, but I have reserves and resources and I would not be destroyed. I don't give that kind of power to anybody anymore.
Is that healthy?
Damned if I know. But it's functional, and so am I. And I'm pretty happy and comfortable in life, so... /shrug I feel like I'm alright.
I find it interesting to discuss these things too. I am glad we can disagree without fighting! Its perfectly fine to have different perspectives of course. I am not sure our perspectives really are that different but we just have different ways of expressing things. I also usually type from my phone which makes it harder for me to go into much detail which I would be able to do from a keyboard, so my succintness might make my entire thoughts not get out there.
Yeah, I don't really go into relationships either with many expectations of what it will be. But there may be times I am more or less open to commitment than other times. Most of my 20s was spent in long relationships so having a break from that and freedom to just soe my oats in my 30s was fun. That also happened to be when a couple guys wanted to marry me and start families but I was the one that wasn't looking for that at that time. I was about to embark on a backpacking adventure around the world and was finally in a place in my life that I had the finances to do it, so I wouldn't have dreamed of giving up that chance.
As for the sports guy, he just had a really fun personality. He was a blast to hang out with. The football thing was just a funny anecdote he told me but it was just strange, to find out, someone is basically making up stories. He probably did do it to make himself more attractive or because it was something he realized help him get the ladies. But it just ...painted him as an all around untrustworthy person as soon as I realized he had probably lied. That is what people with Cluster B personalities do. Like Narcissists, Sociopaths, they exaggerate their achievements to impress you, etc.
I mean, could you imagine doing that? Imagine being on a date and then you make up some wild story about being born into royalty and grand adventures you had as a young princess jet setting to Monaco every weekend to dine with your cousins Harry and William, or something like that. Or, you talk about how you were a teen model and hung out with Brooke Shields and Linda Evangelista in New York City and Paris and Milan. Maybe you've told this story so many times you have come to believe it and it has taken on more details and become more real sounding the more you tell. That's only something a "crazy" person would do, right? I guess its sad if someone feels they have to do that to be considered worthwhile, but its also not right for them to remove my agency in deciding whether or not I want to get involved with the actual person in front of me, not some fabricated image.
But what's done is done. The more hurtful thing to me in that relationship were other things that occurred, cheating, and then gaslighting me about it when I tried to confront him, telling me I am just paranoid and pushing him away and how -y I am to be doing that to him. Things like that just make your head swim. When someone has been caught out at something, they should just admit it and come clean at that point. Continuing to lie and gaslight just adds insult to injury!
But I agree with you, people should give themselves time to grieve for a bit, but it shouldn't become a life long thing. As some point you just gotta decide its been enough ruminating over the past and move forward. Some people who have been involved with sociopaths or narcissists spend the rest of their lives thinking about it and never recovering. I think that is unhealthy. I think some time to recover is normal and healthy, but you gotta give yourself a time limit.
I wouldn't say nobody has the power to devastate me, but I do think with maturity and life experience I have gotten better at recovering from disappointments in general. All disappointments, not just romantic ones. When you are young, small problems can feel so much bigger than they are, because everything is still new to us. As we get older I guess we all get a bit more jaded and we come to learn to keep our expectations lower to avoid so much disappointment when we don't get the things we want.
But as to the topic, all this writing and thinking about this topic has helped me decide what I want to do. I think casual sex worked for me at a certain time in my life, when I didn't want to settle down. But I think I have come to realize I would find an actual love connection more satisfying now. I am willing to be patient to find that, as I think it will take a very long time to find a truly compatible person, if I ever even do. But I think I will know him when I find him. And until then I think having casual sex would just take up precious time I could be spending on other pursuits, like hobbies, work, spending time with family and friends, exercising, cleaning house, etc. I don't regret every experience I've had with it but ultimately its a lot of time and effort into something that, in the grand scheme of things, is a rather shallow endeavor.
Hey, first I want to say that I continue discussing with you because I find this stuff really interesting, Moongirl. I know I seem argumentative sometimes. I am (I swear!) not really trying to persuade anyone to get on board with my way of thinking, I'm more just wanting to be understood. I know that I hold some unusual positions that just plain do not work for everyone. I think that there is a small area where some stuff overlaps (for instance I don't think it's good for a person's happiness to obsess over stuff that has upset them, like find a way to get yourself in a better place and learn what you can from the past, but don't let it define you or continue to repeat-traumatize you if someone did you wrong, try not to get stuck in analysis paralysis and all that.) But also I know that some of that stuff is easier said than done!
And I was not really pointing at ONS with strangers. I wasn't really into that, at least I don't see it that way. But while I need to get to know someone somewhat and I do want to feel enthusiastically interested in them, I also feel there is a big spectrum of trust. I've had "casual" partners that would not be considered for "relationships" because I could not trust them to be an important part of my life. Needing to know that someone is really trustworthy and won't lie to me for instance...OK, lie about what, and how much does that need to matter? If they will never get a key to my home, never be in a position where I need to invest a lot of trust in them, and they are more like a friend I have some sexytimes with for a few months and then transition out of my innermost circle, then I don't necessarily care if they tell me tall tales. I believe myself to be reasonably good at picking up on it when someone is being dishonest (not 100% by a long shot of course)...but I don't always care. I don't always need truth. I think I am more curious about what it is that motivates them to lie. If they're doing it because they are ashamed of something in their real life history that doesn't actually affect me, or to seem more interesting, I will probably let it slide because it probably doesn't matter to me. If they are trying to manipulate me for money or gain, I'll probably wise up and kick them to the curb and slam some boundaries in place. Of course I got more wary about certain kinds of dishonesty after my Ex. He told a ton of lies, many of which I did get a vibe about but he never admitted the truth until the end for some reason. But he covered for it (still does) by telling everyone how very honest he is, how much he hates liars and lies, how he "can't" pull off a lie, he claims to just not have it in him. That might be the biggest lie of them all. (EDIT: I think I'd have rejected your sports stories guy because he sounds boring to me lol...that would be unattractive.)
Thing is though, I did not set out upon new connection with a new person, with a bunch of fences already in place regarding what kind of thing it was gonna be. I didn't decide "I want a casual FWB" and then go looking for one. I didn't decide "I want a husband" and then go looking for one. I did at the time want to protect my space against too much incursion by anyone, and keep from being mooched on and such, but I did not expect to know how serious or lasting a connection would be, I was just like "let's see where it evolves, I'm not making assumptions." Because I was actually OK with it if a thing didn't work out for long term. Oh, sure, I did get plenty petulant and whiny and miserable (briefly) over the one guy. But I got over it pretty quick. Even though he did tell me some lies...my need for them to be true was not very high. But you know, it's kinda my own oldest defense mechanism that I've been rocking since childhood. "You can't hurt me, if I don't care." I can enjoy sex without a great deal of emotional investment...building that takes a higher bar, more trust and more time. I can certainly bond and love, but no man gets THAT cheap & easy, he does have to prove himself deserving of it. But even so, there's a limit to how much I rely on anyone. Too many people have let me down. No one gets the power to devastate me anymore. Even if my husband decided tomorrow that he found someone else and vanished, sure I'd be upset and would have to change my life plans, but I have reserves and resources and I would not be destroyed. I don't give that kind of power to anybody anymore.
Is that healthy?
Damned if I know. But it's functional, and so am I. And I'm pretty happy and comfortable in life, so... /shrug I feel like I'm alright.
I like a lot of what you're saying...and it made me think of a "shopping" analogy that may make some sense. I'm not a girly-girl and don't live to shop but it's a perspective.
My mom didn't give me much good advice, and definitely not about relationships but she told me that when you're looking for clothes, don't go out looking for a sky blue dress with a V-neckline that is sleeveless and hits 4 inches above the knee. You'll never find it! Instead, go out with a general idea, and knowing what you like overall, but just LOOK. Same thing, don't buy a pair of bright red shoes and THEN try to match it to an outfit - it'll always be just a bit off in color or the wrong heel height, etc.
So yes, you can ultimately want a committed relationship or even marriage but you need to be somewhat open. You have your non-negotiables (nothing in yellow, no plunging necklines, no skirts shorter than mid-thigh...but maybe you'd go that short if it was a high/low style?!). And you may find an outfit that's cute for a particular event you have coming up but you know you probably won't wear it again (casual, maybe ONS). Or maybe it's just for when you're on vacation, or only for summer. You wore it a lot this summer and you just MIGHT get it out again next summer or maybe not (do I hear FWB?). And all this is going on while you look for the "perfect" outfit that is a classic and one you know you'll wear for years and years.
So you go shopping quite a bit, when you're looking for an outfit and you may or may not be "through" shopping at some point in your life...but you might always do a bit of "window shopping"?! In terms of not buying shoes before the outfit...you don't want a guy who fits perfectly in one aspect of your life and then you have to try to fit him into the rest of your life. You can try and try, but likely it won't work - you need something or someone more well-rounded and not just rich or just cute.
When you go out wearing your new dress, do your friends give you compliments or at least say you look great in it (they may not like everything about it but it makes you look good)? That isn't the most important thing, but it's nice to get some other opinions, right? Oh, and "clothes" can lie - just like in Seinfeld where the dept. store had "skinny mirrors" and then Elaine got home and the dress made her look fat with her own mirror (lesson - always use and count on your OWN mirror!). Also, an outfit that was the perfect size last year suddenly doesn't fit this year. Do you try to lose the weight or "lose" the outfit/man?
Yeah, so I could go on and on - but this is just trying to think in some different terms. Yes, finding good relationships is an important part of life but it is not your WHOLE life and maybe doesn't need to be a huge dramatic thing and can be about some perspective. ...and now I've finished my creative writing assignment for the day!
I like a lot of what you're saying...and it made me think of a "shopping" analogy that may make some sense. I'm not a girly-girl and don't live to shop but it's a perspective.
My mom didn't give me much good advice, and definitely not about relationships but she told me that when you're looking for clothes, don't go out looking for a sky blue dress with a V-neckline that is sleeveless and hits 4 inches above the knee. You'll never find it! Instead, go out with a general idea, and knowing what you like overall, but just LOOK. Same thing, don't buy a pair of bright red shoes and THEN try to match it to an outfit - it'll always be just a bit off in color or the wrong heel height, etc.
So yes, you can ultimately want a committed relationship or even marriage but you need to be somewhat open. You have your non-negotiables (nothing in yellow, no plunging necklines, no skirts shorter than mid-thigh...but maybe you'd go that short if it was a high/low style?!). And you may find an outfit that's cute for a particular event you have coming up but you know you probably won't wear it again (casual, maybe ONS). Or maybe it's just for when you're on vacation, or only for summer. You wore it a lot this summer and you just MIGHT get it out again next summer or maybe not (do I hear FWB?). And all this is going on while you look for the "perfect" outfit that is a classic and one you know you'll wear for years and years.
So you go shopping quite a bit, when you're looking for an outfit and you may or may not be "through" shopping at some point in your life...but you might always do a bit of "window shopping"?! In terms of not buying shoes before the outfit...you don't want a guy who fits perfectly in one aspect of your life and then you have to try to fit him into the rest of your life. You can try and try, but likely it won't work - you need something or someone more well-rounded and not just rich or just cute.
When you go out wearing your new dress, do your friends give you compliments or at least say you look great in it (they may not like everything about it but it makes you look good)? That isn't the most important thing, but it's nice to get some other opinions, right? Oh, and "clothes" can lie - just like in Seinfeld where the dept. store had "skinny mirrors" and then Elaine got home and the dress made her look fat with her own mirror (lesson - always use and count on your OWN mirror!). Also, an outfit that was the perfect size last year suddenly doesn't fit this year. Do you try to lose the weight or "lose" the outfit/man?
Yeah, so I could go on and on - but this is just trying to think in some different terms. Yes, finding good relationships is an important part of life but it is not your WHOLE life and maybe doesn't need to be a huge dramatic thing and can be about some perspective. ...and now I've finished my creative writing assignment for the day!
Your analogy had me laughing because I'm trying to get in the habit of going on hikes, and I recently decided I wanted some loose fitting cargo shorts, but could not find anything in the women's clothing section at Target, so I ventured into the men's and boom...bought 2 pair. They definitely look like guys' shorts but they are comfortable and practical and I dig it. So as a person who has at times meandered about the pansexual and polyamorous spectrums now I'm like, "...and if the garment you are looking for isn't in the section where you usually shop..." LOL!
being obtuse, what do the terms relationship, commitment, official, ... really mean.
in an article about a murder, the police report listed a one nite stand as a relationship so that it should statically be categorized as a targeted domestic crime and not a random encounter.
teens use terms like we are official; but, the only official relationship status the i.r.s. or i.n.s. would recognize would be marriage certificates (or common-law for states where getting a same sex marriage license was illegal).
but couldnt one say they are committed, have sex, then break the commitment an hour later (one is not contracted to stay in a relationship or else pay a restitution). i feel like humans (particularly women) feel pressured to not have sex outside of a committed official relationship for fear of having to wear a scarlet letter a for the rest of their life.
Last edited by stanley-88888888; 04-12-2022 at 01:07 PM..
being obtuse, what do the terms relationship, commitment, official, ... really mean.
in an article about a murder, the police report listed a one nite stand as a relationship so that it should statically be categorized as a targeted domestic crime and not a random encounter.
teens use terms like we are official; but, the only official relationship status the i.r.s. or i.n.s. would recognize would be marriage certificates (or common-law for states where getting a same sex marriage license was illegal).
but couldnt one say they are committed, have sex, then break the commitment an hour later (one is not contracted to stay in a relationship or else pay a restitution). i feel like humans (particularly women) feel pressured to not have sex outside of a committed official relationship for fear of having to wear a scarlet letter a for the rest of their life.
I also had someone once ask me what was the distinction between "friends" and "a relationship." The snap answer is sexuality, but given the number of FWB situations I've had in the past that's not very accurate.
I think that some expectations (which create feelings of obligation and entitlement) come in as people start engaging in more defining of a relationship and moving towards "commitment." I think that it's a relatively recent development in the culture...well, depending on where you're at in what culture, it varies...that some of us want these things to be more explicit and less assumed. And also, more so as people mature and gain experience in dating. It can be very frustrating when someone has made assumptions, and figures that their assumptions are just how it's done, and if their expectations based on those unspoken things aren't met and complied with then they act like you've broken actual rules. I want the chance to consent (or not) to such things. That includes exclusivity, obligations of time spent and activities engaged in, basically any expectation that someone is going to get upset about if I don't fulfill it, we had better talk about it first. Let alone things like cohabitation, marriage, or reproduction!
So the structure and language we agree on, is going to define whatever it means if there is a "relationship" or a "commitment" or not.
And I think that a lot of women are actually breaking away from any fears about scarlet letters, and for most it's more about concerns for their own emotional wellbeing. I mean, lets face it, if you feel really enthusiastic about a person and you think you've got some kind of an understanding, and you have sex, and your feelings get invested in them, and they break it off when you are not expecting it (as opposed to in a "relationship" where perhaps you can be aware of problems and have a desire to try and work them out, or at least a chance)... That hurts and it sucks. Nobody likes that. I think usually in a relationship, people have some idea of why it ends when it ends, and even if there's nothing you could necessarily do about it, at least you aren't left confused and adrift. When people just pull the rug out from under you, as often happens in more "casual" sexual relations, well...whether you really had a right to expect more or not, you often are left not having any idea as to WHY. They don't tell you it's because they didn't enjoy the sex, or they met someone else or they are emotionally unavailable, or they are a cluster B player or...what. You have no idea. No clarity. No closure. No idea if you could have done anything different to make them happier with you. Nothing.
And then of course there's the concern that someone who is less emotionally invested or committed could give you a baby or an STI and then scamper off without a care in the world, leaving you to deal with something like that... I mean, I don't think it's more likely necessarily that those things will happen in a casual encounter versus a relationship, per se, but at least if you have a serious relationship, you'd be dealing with whatever together, not alone. Risks can only be mitigated to a point and all.
I also had someone once ask me what was the distinction between "friends" and "a relationship." The snap answer is sexuality, but given the number of FWB situations I've had in the past that's not very accurate.
I think that some expectations (which create feelings of obligation and entitlement) come in as people start engaging in more defining of a relationship and moving towards "commitment." I think that it's a relatively recent development in the culture...well, depending on where you're at in what culture, it varies...that some of us want these things to be more explicit and less assumed. And also, more so as people mature and gain experience in dating. It can be very frustrating when someone has made assumptions, and figures that their assumptions are just how it's done, and if their expectations based on those unspoken things aren't met and complied with then they act like you've broken actual rules. I want the chance to consent (or not) to such things. That includes exclusivity, obligations of time spent and activities engaged in, basically any expectation that someone is going to get upset about if I don't fulfill it, we had better talk about it first. Let alone things like cohabitation, marriage, or reproduction!
So the structure and language we agree on, is going to define whatever it means if there is a "relationship" or a "commitment" or not.
And I think that a lot of women are actually breaking away from any fears about scarlet letters, and for most it's more about concerns for their own emotional wellbeing. I mean, lets face it, if you feel really enthusiastic about a person and you think you've got some kind of an understanding, and you have sex, and your feelings get invested in them, and they break it off when you are not expecting it (as opposed to in a "relationship" where perhaps you can be aware of problems and have a desire to try and work them out, or at least a chance)... That hurts and it sucks. Nobody likes that. I think usually in a relationship, people have some idea of why it ends when it ends, and even if there's nothing you could necessarily do about it, at least you aren't left confused and adrift. When people just pull the rug out from under you, as often happens in more "casual" sexual relations, well...whether you really had a right to expect more or not, you often are left not having any idea as to WHY. They don't tell you it's because they didn't enjoy the sex, or they met someone else or they are emotionally unavailable, or they are a cluster B player or...what. You have no idea. No clarity. No closure. No idea if you could have done anything different to make them happier with you. Nothing.
And then of course there's the concern that someone who is less emotionally invested or committed could give you a baby or an STI and then scamper off without a care in the world, leaving you to deal with something like that... I mean, I don't think it's more likely necessarily that those things will happen in a casual encounter versus a relationship, per se, but at least if you have a serious relationship, you'd be dealing with whatever together, not alone. Risks can only be mitigated to a point and all.
Very well said!
The thing that made me uncomfortable about my last partner, is that we had not expressed any kind of commitment to each other, so it was like, he could just vanish on me if he chose to. He owed me no explanation, no "break up" discussion. I didn't like that feeling.
It was great for him, because he was getting all the benefits of a relationship, but with none of the... sacrifices? He could act single because he was, yet at the same time enjoy the perks of having a quasi girlfriend when he had time for me.
What was I getting out of it? Not as much as he was and I finally wised up to it. If I were in a mental space where I wanted to keep my options open, that would be different. But I don't. I've done all the random dating I want to already to last me a lifetime. That's out of my system now.
I realize I am not entitled to a commitment just because I had sex, and I feel like I am going to be accused by the usual suspects of making sex some transactional thing if I now only want it within a commitment? Or told I must not actually enjoy sex or something.
But you have perfectly described my reasons for this!
If having noncommittal sex isn't feeling good, emotionally, for whatever reason, then there is no shame in that.
I appreciate all the sex positivity in this forum and the anti shaming for sure. Its great that we are becoming more sexually liberated and people can have all the casual sex they like.
But its also possible the pendulum could swing too far in that direction, and get to a point where we start shaming people for the opposite (not wanting or enjoying casual sex).
The thing that made me uncomfortable about my last partner, is that we had not expressed any kind of commitment to each other, so it was like, he could just vanish on me if he chose to. He owed me no explanation, no "break up" discussion. I didn't like that feeling.
obtuse: in pretty much every state, outside of a dissolution of marriage one doesnt have a rite to an explanation like infidelity/financial reasons/irreconcilable differences/...
practical: outside of ghosting, i feel that most flings end with some sort of closure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moongirl00
It was great for him, because he was getting all the benefits of a relationship, but with none of the... sacrifices? He could act single because he was, yet at the same time enjoy the perks of having a quasi girlfriend when he had time for me.
What was I getting out of it? Not as much as he was and I finally wised up to it.
this sounds like yoo resented him out of spite more than not enjoying the relationship (yoo even put emphasis on the him). like if he was also miserable; then, yoo would never of ended it ? yoo arr basically saying yoo hated the relationship becuz he liked it so much.
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-y I am to be doing that to him. Things like that just make your head swim. When someone has been caught out at something, they should just admit it and come clean at that point. Continuing to lie and gaslight just adds insult to injury!
