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Originally Posted by Mink57
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At what point was it ever 'acceptable' to oggle or lear or stare at a woman?
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I'm just thinking of a musical that my older husband had me watch, called "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying". They had a whole song about whether or not this was acceptable...with the sort of nod and wink that it's unrealistic to expect otherwise no matter if anybody says it's unacceptable or not... That came out in, I think, the 60s, though. I definitely recall conversations in the 80s and 90s about men getting outraged that they could not have pinup photos at work to "oggle" or "leer at" lest women be offended, and how gosh, they were just gonna stop talking to women because you never know WHAT will upset us. Which always sounded to me like a small child threatening to hold their breath forever if they didn't get their way. Like dude, OK, knock yourself out I guess? lol
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Originally Posted by Igor Blevin
63 pages analyzing the male mind. If you just simplify it to, "men are basically pigs", every question pretty much answers itself.
It is been fun to see some women in denial of how bad men can be, even if most of us realize we can't act on it, or should not act on it.
"Really. All guys are like that?" Yes. 85-90%. All true. We don't act on it, but yes we are thinking about it or looking. Dirty old men are just the ones who don't care if they get caught looking or not. The rest of us are all just more subtle about it.
Men thinking of boinking every attractive women they come across? Do I STILL need to explain this? Re: see "men are pigs" above.
Women civilize men. Men are not civilized on their own. Society works because women act as a civilizing force upon men in society. I can't underscore this enough. Some women refuse to accept this fact. Well, truth hurts. The sexes are different and the impact on society is vital.
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It's pretty wild to me how in the gender wars that our threads often seem to devolve into around here, we'll get men mad that women are bashing you but then you come and bash yourselves like this. I mean, I've always said, I am not the eyeball police or the thought police, I don't give a damn what a man notices or sees or thinks or feels...only what he says and does. All of us have an OBLIGATION to control our words and actions. It's how we manage to exist in a society full of other humans. We don't get to go around grabbing whatever we want.
And it's not that women civilize men...I mean, I've met some seriously out of control little girls...humans who are raised right get civilized to an extent growing up and continue to learn and adapt as adults. You have to, if you want to live in a society. You would be surprised what some women have going through our heads at times. I've had sexual fantasies at completely inappropriate times, I've had fantasies of violence against people who irritated the heck out of me...men act like they are the only ones who think these kinds of things. Nah. It's just that (I believe) women are socialized in most cultures and certainly in ours, to control our impulses and be nice, polite, quiet, unobtrusive, caring of others' needs and feelings etc. And while guys complain a lot of the need to appear tough and invulnerable and not show feelings, there's also a certain amount of "boys will be boys" acceptance of bad behavior that is starting to shift...and guys are freaking out a little here and there at the notion that they might be expect to exert some self control. Well, welcome to the freaking club. Women have been expected to do so for quite some time. Being civilized does not simply happen as a result of being born with certain plumbing. It requires extensive training. Raise a child sometime, if you don't believe me. No toddler is civilized. They are all savage little beasties, and require a lot of supervision and constant guidance.
And take it from me...a girl who is allowed to go "feral" will absolutely get up to plenty of wild sexual behavior in her teens and beyond, if she feels free to do so. Hi! That was me, yep, hello. And some of my behavior was not only wild but unethical, boundary violating, and wrong. I had to LEARN otherwise. Fortunately, ignorance is curable, and I've worked hard on curing mine and doing what I could to make amends for any previous misdeeds.
Point is... We all have impulses, and I think that most of us (especially when we're young, but in various contexts including many nonsexual ones, throughout life) have thoughts of inappropriate or not-socially-acceptable behavior, but we learn not to just say or do whatever pops into our heads. Or we end up dead, in prison, etc. This whole, "men are terrible because we have thoughts" stuff...nah, you're just human. I think that the issue has been the idea that a man can't be expected to exert control over his behavior...like if you have a thought, of course you'll act on it...so we have to remove all temptation... Instead, try accepting that you had a thought or feeling but NOT feeling entitled to just speak or act on it. Which also speaks to the "men can't have feelings" thing...like just because it's a bad idea to weep in front of men who might bully you, does not mean that you are not allowed to feel sad. Just need to put some buffer space between the internal stuff and the outward expression of it, that's all.
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Originally Posted by shelato
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Go watch Harold and Maude. Ruth Gordon was in her 70s when she filmed that movie, but she had it going on.
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So if an older woman wishes to remain attractive and have it "going on" she should...steal a car? LOL (I love that movie!)
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Originally Posted by timberline742
Is that what people think is the norm? Relatively small first hand sample size, but I seem exactly the opposite. When friends I have are post menopausal and they know they can't get pregnant they tend to go to pound town at what is to me an exhausting rate.
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I'd ponder the question of said middle aged/older woman's life situation. Is she in a marriage that stopped being sexually exciting a long time ago, with a man who takes her for granted or no longer desires sex or no longer finds her appealing? Bogged down in the tedious minutia of life? Is she perhaps tired of men in general after a traumatic relationship that left her just...DONE? And some can find such peace and happiness just focusing on other things in life that make one joyful. But certainly there are plenty of women who are free to take exciting lovers at that age range, or who are fortunate enough to have good sex going on with a long term partner, who do cut loose and get our groove on. But I think that there is a tie in with that "reactive desire" thing that shelato often references from that book...like, a woman who is not experiencing anything that gets her engines going can instead just settle quite comfortably into a life that does not include much of a drive for sex. And she won't feel as though anything is missing.
There is plenty of variation. If there even is anything like a "norm" I would assume that most middle aged women are married, and that sex may wane...but I don't necessarily think that it is a biological thing. I think it's just life. I think that people get comfortable, soft around the middle, busy with a ton of other concerns, and sex goes by the wayside. And that whole "reactive desire" thing can really trip us up, because men who have been married for decades rarely put any energy into giving the wife anything to react to sexually...even if THEY complain about wanting more sex than they are getting. Complaining, begging, pleading...most women won't get turned on by any of that. Let alone fighting or lecturing. But I suspect that often enough, that's how it goes. I would say to such husbands that they ought to up their Gomez game. This is, of course, NOT speaking to anyone who has medical situations changing the equation, that's different.
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Originally Posted by AfriqueNY
It's the direct result of removing the family gatekeepers from dating. When I was growing up me and my male friends knew that we had to be respectful cause dad and brothers and cousins would not go for disrespect of a female family member. Now it's the wild west. Anything goes cause women wanted to be treated equally. They don't want dad or brother or anybody else vetting their men anymore.
Yes. This is what it is now. I'd wager that your daughter has NO interest in messaging an AVERAGE man on the sites. My biggest advice to any woman using a dating site is to ignore messages from random men and message only the men you wish to meet.
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I'm not really sure how you tell us in one breath that you are a "liberal feminist" and then say something like this.
Which is basically "it's ridiculous to expect men to respect women, men only respect other men. Without other men (read: actual people) involved, women are just a treat sitting there waiting to be grabbed up...that's what you get for wanting to be treated equally."
And then you complain that women are too picky with our choices on dating sites.
Keep one thing in mind...if there is one thing that women are getting wise to, it's that men who talk like this about "men"... It's common enough for a given dude to say these kinds of things about men in general and then try to expect some woman to believe that he is special and she should appreciate him, that MEN are like this, but HE isn't. When in fact, when you say such things, yeah...other men did not vote for you to represent them like this, you only get to tell us how you think, who YOU are. It becomes a direct reflection of you.
And frankly, those individual women who crap-talk "women" in general...and I am thinking of somebody, I'll admit... I didn't vote for you either, so you might think you're setting yourself aside as "not like other women" in cozying up to the woman hating men around you but I'm here to tell you that you're just putting all kinds of self loathing on display. And it ain't pretty.
Anyone who thinks that all or most of everybody else is the problem, is just telling on themselves. And knowing that, is a HUGE part of having a much better life experience with other people in the world around you.
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Originally Posted by Igor Blevin
What happened is that culture changed when women quit demanding marriage before sex. I realize it is a long long way between marriage and just getting to know someone, but this is what we call the "slippery slope".
It starts out men get their way getting premarital sex with the engagement ring. They get that and the next thing is sex just dating. We moved on to hooking up and friends with benefits. When you through out the moral norms of societly like "I am waiting for marriage", you quickly run down to a point where guys just want to have sex with any hot girl. What is the point of knowing her?
I am explaining, not advocating. I am explaining how we got to this point. Birth control and abortion allowed couples to safely reduce pregnancy risk to a very low level, and accelerated the sexual revolution to where men could pressure women to have sex early in the dating cycle. The continued decline in social morals has us to the point where men now expect to just have sex and say "see ya".
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for today's cultural problems.
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So you don't like women, and don't believe that we enjoy sex. See above comment. Be careful of telling on yourself.
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Originally Posted by AfriqueNY
I I'm glad you had the guts to say it. I'm not trying to get canceled.
There is no upside to dating for a woman. It's giving away something for nothing in return. What man wouldn't take that deal. Car dealership giving free test drives and never getting anyone to sign the contract to buy. Grandma used to say something about cows and free milk.
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Wild. I really enjoyed dating. The upside was great times with great people. The sex was often fun, hell...sometimes more fun for me than for some of the men involved, I think. One dude gave me a bunch of money that I did not ask for and didn't really want. Another partner, a woman, booked us tons of cool adventures and activities. Long term, I came out of it with a wonderful husband, new family connections to people I like and love, new paths to explore in life, friends I hope to have around forever. I don't know what the hell you're talking about that I gave away, and I sure got a lot more than nothing in return.
I mean, I guess if all the men one knows are total scrubs who are a-holes to be around, on drugs or drunk all the time, looking to mooch money, and generally tryin' to make a woman's life crap...then her "giving" such a man sex, especially if he's no good at making it a pleasing experience, well... But again. I don't know who exactly you're speaking for but it sure as heck isn't men in general. Or even people in general. If dating is such a losing proposition for anyone I suggest they date better people and if they can't, then perhaps they need to take some time to become a better person first, or else change whatever pond they're casting bait into.
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Originally Posted by Igor Blevin
I hope nobody is asking you to accept rude behavior from men. I am just trying to help you understand the "why" of it and the sad reality of the "common" of it. Do you think cat-calling and ogling began in 1900? I am betting cave men were grabbing cave women about 100,000 years ago.
So it always comes down to culture and behavior. We always had a segment of men that were rude to women. Even men who aren't typically rude to women, can be susceptible to mob behavior when they are in a group of guys who are all being rude. They may not join in, but they very well might when they ordinarily would not do so. Culture used to be that the lower blue-collar type guys were guilty of this kind of behavior while most other men did not indulge in it for many reasons, from it being wrong to not wanting to scare women off.
Our culture has been going downhill for a very long time. You don't have to accept that either, but that is a fact.
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I don't know where YOU live that culture has been "going downhill" (?)... But the kind of stuff you are talking about, cave men and gangs of "blue collar" dudes what, like at least being rude and at worst...? I have zero expectation that any of that is going down when I leave the house.
Just leaves me wondering where you live that is such a freaking war zone of the sexes or if you leave the house much and go around other people. I'm not a bad looking woman, all things considered...averageish...but I don't have dudes chasing me around or being rude to me out in the world. Haven't even been cat called in a really long time.*
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Originally Posted by Auraliea
I wish some of yall would stop blaming the fact that you do stupid stuff or don't know how to act, on your "desire" for women because it just looks silly and immature. Seriously. You are aware of your actions and you are aware of this desire therefore you should have enough sense to behave like a regular human being. Stop blaming "biology" for reckless and irresponsible decisions.
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Originally Posted by otterhere
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As for cat calls and other male attention, I don't think most women are as offended as they pretend to be by these. Some of us never even bothered to pretend to be offended at all and in fact miss it now.
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* Hm, well. I am in hindsight.
Because when I was getting cat called in public, I was like age 12-16 or so. After I became an adult, it pretty much stopped happening entirely. At the time, I found it vaguely amusing and I admit that the attention did go somewhat to my head, but thinking back about it... Grown azz construction worker type ("blue collar?") men saying lewd things to young teens, it's kinda gross, innit?
And I ponder why I got this kind of behavior back then but it stopped later...
I'm sure that a big part of it was the company I kept and changing things in that regard. Like, the last time I recall really being sexually harassed, I was working nights at a gas station at age 20 or so. After that, I got an office job downtown, and people did not act inappropriately towards me anymore.
But I also suspect that for some dudes, cat calling is not about expressing sexual interest, so much as it's bullying. They want the woman to appear to feel threatened and uncomfortable, they find that aspect entertaining. They want her to know that even if he maybe can't get away with straight up assaulting her in that moment, he's thinking about it, he wants to watch her KNOW that he's thinking about it, and for her to know that he can insinuate and push that energy at her and no one can stop him. I think that's the real spirit of the thing. Not a genuine expression of just...noticing a hot woman. And I absolutely do pin that kind of bullying motive on the men who leered, ogled, and cat called me in my youth. And frankly, I do find that disgusting and offensive.
I also find it really interesting when women try to build common cause with course men by pulling that whole, "I'm not like other women, I don't even like women" and defending bad behavior on men's part...like the last time I did that, I was in an abusive marriage and surrounded by his friends. I look back and see a number of ways in which one might say that I was "simping" for abusive men. God do I ever feel mentally...cleaner now that I am away from all of that.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
No. It's more than that.
People need to be more accepting of those who aren't on the same page as they are...even if the other person is honest.
I got no problem telling someone I'm asexual. The 'problem' happens because of someone else's beliefs about sexuality -- like, EVERYONE wants/"needs" sex.
No. "EVERYONE" doesn't.
So, as much as a person can be 'honest', it doesn't mean they'll be believed...
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Well, but the problem could be that as much as another person might need to be accepting of someone's stated position of asexuality, if it comes to a dating scenario, the asexual is also going to need to be accepting that someone who isn't asexual is not obligated to become asexual for their sake either.
Both people have needs that matter, but if those needs differ enough that might just make them incompatible for a relationship.
Neither one has a right to push at the other and try to make them change or give ground on such a thing, in my opinion.
tbh, I have found it somewhat encouraging though, that at least a few men have showed up to say that they could legit be down for something like what the OP wants. I mean, I do think that asexuality is relatively rare, but as I often think...uncommon is a far cry from impossible.
I know it probably seems like I circled back to "are you sure...?" kinds of arguments many times, but it was only a desire to clear any ambiguity (within certain bounds of not going way into TMI) in exploring what options could be feasible to OP. She's made it pretty clear by now though.
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R
. And that's the main reason I got divorced.
