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I just have a general comment for hope1er...I think you should listen beachmel and bobman more than anyone else....while some of the things they are saying can be mean, it needs to be said and it is correct and accurate. Not many people will call you out and things that you are doing wrong like they are, so pay attention.
And one other comment, I think you might be feeling that you are getting a lot of **** thrown at you for doing X, Y Z wrong and for being this and that, and you might react in anger and reject it. Well, don't look at it as attacks on who you are and what you are, just look at it as an opportunity to learn. Instead of saying "no you're wrong I hate you why are you being mean blah blah".... say "hmm, what can I do better in the future?".
I know it sucks, but you have to do this or you will never change.
Edit: After thinking about it a little, I have to point out that beachmel and bobman do seem to have a little bit of anger towards people who are/were abusers. I'm guessing this has something to do with the fact that they were abused themselves for so long and have had to put up with all that BS. I've noticed in their replies to hope1er that everything they said is almost always negative and any positive reinforcement seems somewhat fake (as if they had to use the logical side of their brains to write it). THAT BEING SAID, I think their advice is still the best (I know, it sounds like a contradiction...), because as mean as some of the things they say, THEY ARE CORRECT, AND YOU HAVE TO FIX IT. An example being that restraining order, what the hell did you do that for? She isn't crazy or abusive towards the kids at all, so why did you do it? That is really a passive aggressive way to further abuse her. Dude....why did you do it? A restraining order is generally used on someone who is a physical threat to someone else. That isn't the case here, or is it? I'm guessing it isn't.
I realize that it comes across as anger....and in fact there might be a little bit there. More than anything, you will read intolerance in my and bobman's words. We have no tolerance for abusive behavior. The thing that got me angry? Did you read ALL of his posts? I did. What I REALLY have no tolerance for, are the ones who change their stories. First we heard that the OPs wife had been trying to text her kids, but they wouldn't respond. THEN we heard that she had not contacted the kids for 5-6 (?) weeks!
The restraining order thing.....the one you got heated up about LOL...that was one more pin in the hiney! I mean, that's CLASSIC! I don't want to abuse you, but you MAKE me abuse you. The fact that the children have chosen to join in on the abuse makes it perfectly clear that they have been messed up.
You see this kind of stuff all the time. Go to a department store and listen to the occasional mother whose child is whining. (I've seen this MANY times) The mother isn't telling her child to stop it. She isn't telling her child that she simply will NOT take him to the store again. What she's telling him is, "If you whine one more time, I'm going to tell your father!" "Did you hear me?" "You just wait until your dad gets home tonight, he's going to beat your a$$!" This woman is painting herself as the "good guy". She's terrorizing her small child by making him afraid of his father. Fathers do the same thing!
It might be difficult for some people to believe this, but there are some of us who were BORN with no tolerance for abuse and meanness. There is not a time in my life, as far back as my memory goes, where I have EVER not felt horror at the thought of intentionally being cruel to someone or something. My mind can't comprehend it. Nor can it comprehend stealing, deceiving, saying one thing when I'm feeling another, saying hurtful things for the purpose of hurting, hitting or bullying someone. Never in my life has that made any sense to me. It is incomprehensible. I have been subject to those things AND immediately put a stop to them in my life, but I have NEVER been able to comprehend why someone would do something like that.
What I find most hard to comprehend is a person claiming to love someone and then purposely or carelessly hurting them. I can not wrap my brain around something like that. Even more bizarre to me are people who bring children into this world and are totally blind to how they (parents) are teaching their kids about life, the examples they're setting for their kids... parents who are "teaching" their children how to have dysfunctional relationships or viewpoints of the world that are going to come back and destroy their children later. My mind goes into a turmoil.....my heart breaks. I just don't understand! I want to scream, in tears, "My GOD why can't you see what you're doing to your kids!! How can you say you love someone and then screw them up so badly? Don't you see what you're doing?"
I know this is turning into a book...but I am just so passionate about this very thing. We have so many confused young people out there... being raised by so many confused adults. Somewhere, somehow, these chains of dysfunction have to STOP! Someone has to have enough courage to change things. We keep re-creating the hell that we most fear and it has got to stop! Basically....our OP has done the same thing that his father did....the difference is this....he took the children. Oh, I know she left, but he shoved her out and then took out a restraining order and filed for divorce. I am not as angry as you think I am, I just can't comprehend it.
Doctor, it hurts when I stick my finger in my eye. DON'T stick your finger in your eye. But doctor, I want it to not hurt when I stick my finger in my eye. Well......stop sticking your finger in your eye!! But Doctor, I just want it to not hurt. I don't WANT to stop sticking my finger in my eye. Doctor shakes his head....."Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning. also, I'm going to give you some antibiotics....it's going to destroy your immune system, but it will protect you from the infection that you're most likely going to get from constantly sticking your finger in your eye." We are victims of our own creation.....destined to wallow in the despair of our own making.....unless we look at ourselves in the mirror and say, YOU are NOT going to keep DOING this! This stops NOW! Everytime an unbidden thought enters our mind, we have to say, "Is this GOOD/RIGHT or is this BAD/WRONG?" It's that freakin' easy! In fact, it gets downright simple with practice!
Apparently you're missing the point where she tried to text them from the get-go, and they didn't respond to her. Clearly, those kids had already been brainwashed by their father , or he's a liar and wouldn't LET them call. No, you do NOT understand abuse. You do NOT understand this situtayion. It is entirely possible that advice such as YOURS helped to fuel his BS, underhanded controlling tactics. He is a sick man! You do NOT say things like you said to a chronically abusive person. Your comments only fueled the fire because you know nothing about situations like these!
And you know this how? You should really go back and his posts carefully. It reads to me like your are projecting your personal experience onto the OP. Your situation and his are completely different: there are different players in different situations.
btw, if he was keeping the kids from Mom she wouldn't be over visiting.
I will take you serious when I see that things are okay with your kids and your wife/ex-wife. Your kids are clearly feeling sorry for you, rather than having empathy for your wife. You need to work on that situation. You don't like yourself...okay, fine. Well....imagine this scenario, your kids end up with someone just like you. You get to watch their SO treating them just like you treated your wife. You get to suffer horribly, knowing that you were the one who set that example for years...and they thought it was perfectly normal. They put up with it and don't listen to you when you tell them to RUN....to not put up with it. They turn on you because you just don't understand.
What you don't understand is that he has no control over how his kids feel. Perhaps you have been fortunate enough not to have your mother run out on you, but I have seen the damage first hand. I grew up with it. My godmother ran off and left her kids and almost 30 years later they still haven't completely forgiven her.
Why don't you try looking at this from the kid's POV instead of Mom's? Their mother was in an unbearable situation and LEFT THEM IN IT. I wouldn't talk to her either. From their POV if she cared about them, she wouldn't have left. Of course they are going to gravitate more towards Dad, he's still there. Just like when Dad's leave after an affair, the kids take Mom's side, because Mom is still there.
I know you think this poor woman has been victimized enough without losing her kids, but apparently this is not something she thought of and she's very lucky that HE is mature enough to take responsibility for his actions and is trying to repair himself and his marriage and that he didn't use her leaving as an opportunity to make them hate her because he could have done. Parental alienation is a major problem but it is not present here.
I just have a general comment for hope1er...I think you should listen beachmel and bobman more than anyone else....while some of the things they are saying can be mean, it needs to be said and it is correct and accurate. Not many people will call you out and things that you are doing wrong like they are, so pay attention.
And one other comment, I think you might be feeling that you are getting a lot of **** thrown at you for doing X, Y Z wrong and for being this and that, and you might react in anger and reject it. Well, don't look at it as attacks on who you are and what you are, just look at it as an opportunity to learn. Instead of saying "no you're wrong I hate you why are you being mean blah blah".... say "hmm, what can I do better in the future?".
I know it sucks, but you have to do this or you will never change.
Edit: After thinking about it a little, I have to point out that beachmel and bobman do seem to have a little bit of anger towards people who are/were abusers. I'm guessing this has something to do with the fact that they were abused themselves for so long and have had to put up with all that BS. I've noticed in their replies to hope1er that everything they said is almost always negative and any positive reinforcement seems somewhat fake (as if they had to use the logical side of their brains to write it). THAT BEING SAID, I think their advice is still the best (I know, it sounds like a contradiction...), because as mean as some of the things they say, THEY ARE CORRECT, AND YOU HAVE TO FIX IT. An example being that restraining order, what the hell did you do that for? She isn't crazy or abusive towards the kids at all, so why did you do it? That is really a passive aggressive way to further abuse her. Dude....why did you do it? A restraining order is generally used on someone who is a physical threat to someone else. That isn't the case here, or is it? I'm guessing it isn't.
Restraining orders are also to protect children who do not want to be forcibly removed from the home, as he did here. He did the right thing to protect his children's right to decide where they want to live.
In this case it was not another tool for control. His children were infear they would be forced to live with Mom and they didn't want to, so he did what was necessary to prevent that from happening.
What you don't understand is that he has no control over how his kids feel. Perhaps you have been fortunate enough not to have your mother run out on you, but I have seen the damage first hand. I grew up with it. My godmother ran off and left her kids and almost 30 years later they still haven't completely forgiven her.
Why don't you try looking at this from the kid's POV instead of Mom's? Their mother was in an unbearable situation and LEFT THEM IN IT. I wouldn't talk to her either. From their POV if she cared about them, she wouldn't have left. Of course they are going to gravitate more towards Dad, he's still there. Just like when Dad's leave after an affair, the kids take Mom's side, because Mom is still there.
I know you think this poor woman has been victimized enough without losing her kids, but apparently this is not something she thought of and she's very lucky that HE is mature enough to take responsibility for his actions and is trying to repair himself and his marriage and that he didn't use her leaving as an opportunity to make them hate her because he could have done. Parental alienation is a major problem but it is not present here.
Actually, YOU are the one who is projecting here. LOL. Dad is their hero. Again....perhaps YOU should go back and re-read some posts here. I feel bad that you dealt with this in your life. I have several friends who went through what you went through and feel awful for them. Every one of them have a different story to tell though. Again, I'm not projecting, not at all, seriously, I've read everything he's written, seen everything he's "said" he's done, what she did, what the kids did and he has admitted to doing what I told him he did. He is the kids' hero, they look up to and respect him. Mom didn't leave them with someone they consider a monster. Mom walked out on their hero and they're ticked off, because they don't understand what he was doing to her. My dear, again....look at your heart, you are the one who is projecting here. Although your life/childhood may have held much trauma for you, it is highly likely that you don't really understand all of the logistics of what happened in YOUR parents' relationship either. Perhaps you do. I don't know....but there are always 2 sides to a story.
OK, look, I'm going to ask that we drop this thing about the OP's wife, and whether she's a bad mother or not.
CE, obviously, myself and Beachmel disagree with you, and no matter how we try, you are not changing your mind.
Fair enough, that's your right, it's your opinion if you want it.
I'm getting the feeling now that it's not helping, because we're arguing in circles.
There is enough information on the thread for the casual observer to make up their mind,so, i propose we leave them to do just that.
Perhaps it's time we left the thread for the OP's musings ? This can only be confusing him more.
OK, look, I'm going to ask that we drop this thing about the OP's wife, and whether she's a bad mother or not.
CE, obviously, myself and Beachmel disagree with you, and no matter how we try, you are not changing your mind.
Fair enough, that's your right, it's your opinion if you want it.
I'm getting the feeling now that it's not helping, because we're arguing in circles.
There is enough information on the thread for the casual observer to make up their mind,so, i propose we leave them to do just that.
Perhaps it's time we left the thread for the OP's musings ? This can only be confusing him more.
Agreed, my friend.....agreed! All we can do, all we are called to do, is to help/share. Some folks will never understand. You put it out there and hope it helps.....thank you for being someone who really and truly cares.
OP, more than anything, bobman and I hope that we have been of some real help to you...given you a few things to think about. The choice is yours. Do you use it to help, or to hurt? Just remember, you have the opportunity to help end the chain of abuse. You ARE in control of your destiny. Ultimately, we all are...of our own. The choices we make today determine where we'll be down the road. Choose wisely my friend, your future and possibly that of your children, depend on it.
Intimacy is not an issue at all, never has been, affection is though, she has never shown me affection and I do believe that this is the problem. HOWEVER, why would she show me affection if I make her feel bad. I understand this, "tit for tat" if I want affection I got to earn it, but she is naturally that way. She is a closed book and has always been that way and I feel that the only way I can get her to reassure me that she loves me is after an argument, and this is the routine that I have created. 90% of our marriage has been great!! But the 10% of it has been bad because of this pattern that we are on. We both want to break this pattern. She wants to be more open and affectionate and I want to be more understanding but we are both afraid to start somewhere.
Wanting to is a great starting point. Open, honest communication is another. When my ex and I were deciding whether or not to remain married we wrote out list of everything no holds barred of what we needed to make our marriage work. We agreed not to defend ourselves and to listen and accept the other person's POV whether we agreed with it or not and to explore WHY that person felt the way they did. Granted, in the end we did end the marriage, but we are still good friends and the only reason we were able to do that is because we talked everything out. Again absolutely the best of luck to both of you.
Intimacy is not an issue at all, never has been, affection is though, she has never shown me affection and I do believe that this is the problem. HOWEVER, why would she show me affection if I make her feel bad. I understand this, "tit for tat" if I want affection I got to earn it, but she is naturally that way. She is a closed book and has always been that way and I feel that the only way I can get her to reassure me that she loves me is after an argument, and this is the routine that I have created. 90% of our marriage has been great!! But the 10% of it has been bad because of this pattern that we are on. We both want to break this pattern. She wants to be more open and affectionate and I want to be more understanding but we are both afraid to start somewhere.
Both of you....just START....remember romance? How did you two hook up? You can't necessarily start over, I mean, the baggage is there. How much space you allow that baggage to take up is up to you both. Since your wife is not posting on here, it's kind of tough to give her tips and it wouldn't be right for her to get it second hand from you.
You need to just learn to love her for who she is.
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You should really go back and his posts carefully. It reads to me like your are projecting your personal experience onto the OP. Your situation and his are completely different: there are different players in different situations.
