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I don't need to read. I've lived it.
I've been there, done it, and got the t-shirt, things my ex-wife did to me would make your hair curl. Mentally and physically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESpeed
It's about tiime you started posting something postive. Negativity gains nothing.
When I have positive things to say, I will say them.
I have positive things to say to the OP, but not about your postings. While i can see that you are trying to encourage the OP, that sentiment is admirable. I also wish him well, your comments may not be helpful.
By all means, encourage his efforts, but, if you truly understood abuse and it's effects, you will see that your derogatory comments about his wife are not helpful.
In these matters, you cannot get personally involved, because you can worsen the situation.
If, for example, the OP has some sort of illness which causes his behaviour, then by telling him that she is wrong, and a bad mother, it could reinforce any thoughts in his head, and could undermine the counselling.
I'm sure none of us want that.
Again, I draw your attention to the link posted by Ticatica.
While not exhaustive, it gives an insight, and, to clarify your point that "she should not have left the kids", my g/f has come from an abusive relationship, and is in therapy, what the women's groups tell the victims is that unless they feel the kids are in danger, then there is no need to take the kids if it is not possible. It is better to preserve the self, and recover before taking steps for custody, or access.
In this case, it seems the OP's controlling behaviour was only directed to her, and the children were under no threat, so she took the correct action.
Whether you like it or not the truth id the truth and she IS A BAD MOTHER. I don't care if you don't like me saying it. I am a grown woman living in America and I can say what I choose. If you don't like it, too bad.
NO responsible mother leaves her children with a person she believes to be abusive.
NO responsible mother simply disappears without a word.
NO responsible mother leaves her children wondering if she's dead or alive or they will ever see her again.
And if you knew ANYTHING about abusive realtionships, you would know that once the target is removed the abuser moves on to the next available target. That's why when there is a child abuse allegation, ALL children are removed from the home even if only ONE is being abused. It is known that the abuser will simply select another target.
SHE LUCKED OUT - He decided to get help and has not moved on to the kids, bit she had know way of knowing he wouldn't and SHE DIDN'T CARE. The only thing that was important to her was herself. The welfare of her children be d*mned.
Obviously, everything I experienced during and after my ten year abusive marriage was wrong, as, possibly was the abuse which my g/f suffered during hers, and the advice which the womens' centres gave her.
Hey, maybe it was all my fault after all.
HOW COULD THEY GET IT SO WRONG ?
Obviously, we should disregard every link posted about DV, because CE is omniscent.
The two years my g/f's spent in counselling, well. I can't believe the counsellors were so uninformed.
All the seminars she's been to, and literature she's brought home, might as well just toss it in the bin. I'll mention to her to tell them they're wrong, and they should reprint everything.
Pay special attention to the bits where it says to take the children with you "if possible"
However, I'm gonna go right ahead and guess that you either won't bother reading them, or, you'll think they're wrong.
I would suggest to you that the "facts" you are spouting are probably relevant, however, are more relevant to violent situations, rather than emotional abuse, and that emotional controllers work in an entirely different way than purely physical abusers. Therefore, in this case, you are saying the wrong thing, but, I'm guessing it'll go in one ear and out of the other.
I'd try once again to tell you that a victim of abuse who flees the situation cannot possibly be a bad parent, when they assessed the risk to their children, and were satisfied it was minimal, and that they are nothing other than a victim. that there can be no blame to the victim for the abuse, or the consequences of the abuse.
Her leaving is a consequence of the abuse. nothing else. If she wasn't abused, she wouldn't have left.
However, i suspect I would be wasting my time.
You may be a "grown woman living in America", but, it appears you have closed off your mind to any opinion other than yours.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I hope ignorance works out OK for you.
OP, again, good luck with your journey, however this person's "advice" should be taken lightly as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESpeed
Whether you like it or not the truth id the truth and she IS A BAD MOTHER. I don't care if you don't like me saying it. I am a grown woman living in America and I can say what I choose. If you don't like it, too bad.
NO responsible mother leaves her children with a person she believes to be abusive.
NO responsible mother simply disappears without a word.
NO responsible mother leaves her children wondering if she's dead or alive or they will ever see her again.
And if you knew ANYTHING about abusive realtionships, you would know that once the target is removed the abuser moves on to the next available target. That's why when there is a child abuse allegation, ALL children are removed from the home even if only ONE is being abused. It is known that the abuser will simply select another target.
SHE LUCKED OUT - He decided to get help and has not moved on to the kids, bit she had know way of knowing he wouldn't and SHE DIDN'T CARE. The only thing that was important to her was herself. The welfare of her children be d*mned.
Last edited by bobman; 03-30-2010 at 02:46 AM..
Reason: spelling
Just to clarify a point, in case CE, or anyone else thinks I'm being harsh, or obstinate, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, in a case like this, it's hard to remain objective, and, no matter how hard we try, we always apportion blame.
However, to express this opinion, in a case like this could be harmful to the common cause.
The OP has admitted he has a problem, and, it was his destructive behaviour which ked to the split.
That does take guts, it takes guts to seek help, top marks for that, OP.
However, looking at things objectively, in an abusive relationship, the abuser sees the victim as unworthy, and that everything is the victim's fault.
Everything they do is designed to undermine, and demean the victim. Whether it is a conscious thing or not, appears to be debatable, according to behaviourists.
Search the forum for titles like "narcissism", or "sociopath", and there is information out there.
Where I personally feel CE's posts are unhelpful is that she is effectively reinforcing this idea in the OP's mind, and, while he's still in therapy, he's at a fragile state, and this could well be damaging to his recovery.
Although CE is saying what she does with the best of intention, we have to remember that the abuser may not hear it quite so objectively as the rest of us, because of their problem.
While we hear "she should have taken the children", or " why didn't she wait a bit, and make a full escape plan ?"
What the Narcissist/sociopath hears is "Yeah, she's just a bi*ch, my God, I was right, she can't even look after her kids, what a loser, I was right all along".
Essentially, their distorted world view means they hear what they want to hear.
It's all a matter of perspective, and, until his therapy is completed, the OP's perspective may be skewed.
As I keep saying, I wish him well, he is on a long hard journey, and has many lessons to learn, that attempt is to be applauded, I will be the first in line to congratulate him if he succeeds, but even if we DO judge the victim, I will politely ask everyone please not to comment on that, lest it be misinterpereted.
Pats on the back are fine, but we have to remain objective to truly help.
Last edited by bobman; 03-30-2010 at 06:57 AM..
Reason: Can't spell !!
You are the one who is insisting that he has the only valid point of view. Have you ever seen the eyes of an abandoned child? I have. The first person a child trusts without reservation is their mother. Most children when they get hurt cry for mommy even though daddy is right there. There is a reason for this. When a mother abandons a child, she has destroyed their very foundation. How can they trust anyone if mommy will leave them?
But you're right the children aren't important. As long as she got out that's all that matters.
These are not children, they are teenagers. They are better equipped to deal with it. I'm sure if they's been young kiddies, we'd be hearing a different tale.
Maybe we should be more concerned about the effects of the OP's controlling behaviour on them, but that was a road I was trying to avoid.
If they've been watching this for years, who's done more damage ?
The abuser by showing them how to be an abuser, or the victim, by suffering silently for years, and putting up with the abuse, until they felt they had no option but to leave.
The OP has mentioned that problems at home while he was young have contributed towards his problem, and he's made the same mistakes, we have to hope his kids don't.
Everyone can learn from this situation.
We are not talking about abandoning here, she left him, but she hasn't left them. Ok, she didn't get in touch for a while, as things calmed down, and she got her head, and her affairs together, but she hasn't abandoned them. ** EDITED** Actually, after reading the latest post on the thread, it reminded me that she had, in fact been in touch with them, but they had not been welcoming to her approaches. Most definitely not abandonment. ** EDITED**
Perhaps the OP is a great father, but lousy husband.
stranger things have happened.
It can also be noted that in some cases, including mine, the abuser will gladly use the kids as a "weapon" against their victim, and will use them to find out addresses of safe homes, or to get information, or, simply to abuse visitations, and deny access to hurt the victim further.
I'm not suggesting the OP is like that, but these situations are factored in when victims are being advised on leaving strategies, as a precaution for the worst case scenario.
So far as "You are the one who is insisting that he has the only valid point of view."
Go back a few pages, and you'll see I'm not, but maybe everyone else has just given up, figuring that you can't be educated, where I am just that little more persistent.
Again, I state that your "advice" may be correct, but this may not be the correct situation, and we do not have enough facts in this case to be able to make a full judgement. Therefore opinions are best left unsaid, and matters related purely to the information at hand, rather than speculation.
The OP has given us limited information, and, since it's his tale, it's his perspective.
I would also be interested to hear his wife's version of events, although, since I got involved with DV victims, I've probably, sadly, heard it all before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESpeed
You are the one who is insisting that he has the only valid point of view. Have you ever seen the eyes of an abandoned child? I have. The first person a child trusts without reservation is their mother. Most children when they get hurt cry for mommy even though daddy is right there. There is a reason for this. When a mother abandons a child, she has destroyed their very foundation. How can they trust anyone if mommy will leave them?
But you're right the children aren't important. As long as she got out that's all that matters.
Okay so my counselor says I am insecure, i am insecure, my parents separated when I was a kid, I had an older sibling that was very high maintenance, and I had a sibling that was a toddler. I guess you can say i had the middle child syndrome. I was very attached to my father when he left the family and i never understood why he left. We haven't had much communication throughout the years. i guess that is why i am insecure about myself. Don't get me wrong I don't walk around feeling sorry for myself actually i carry myself very confident, I just can't give my wife room to breathe. I guess because i fear that I am going to lose her, that she is going to walk out and leave me to, just like my father did. so i tried to do everything possible to prevent that and was i wrong. Ha she left anyway. Even though she has left me I still sit here hoping that she is not going to leave me. Stupid huh SHE ALREADY LEFT. Wow. i just don't get it. I have alot of work to do on myself.I just don't know if I should try for this marriage. I have had time to think of my situation and this is not just my fault. She did her part to.. Yeah I have a problem but I have accepted it. I just think that she should have talked to me and told me how serious this was becoming. I don't know I guess I'm just extremely confused. agh I don't think i have a question i think this is a rant, just tell me what you think.
Hope1er,
I don't mean to go all "psychoanalyst" on you here, but I don't believe your above statement to be true. I believe that since your father left you, even though you tried to do everything right, you knew your wife was going to leave you too....everyone does, right? It's why you chased her away on your own....but it really wasn't what you wanted after all, was it? I am so happy for you, that you have taken the bull by the horns and are seeking help. As other posters have said, take this new knowledge you are gaining and apply it to all areas of your life. You will see profound changes in all areas. If your wife is too scarred to trust you again and things don't work out with her (and I really hope they do), use this new knowledge in a later relationship.
You're going to have a choice to make if the relationship with her doesn't work out though. Do you allow your failed relationship (even though you were trying to change), to scar you even further? Are you going to say, "It's not worth the work. See? She didn't love me. I took the steps to change. I changed and became a better person. That just proves she didn't love me because she left anyway!"
OR
Do you acknowledge that you waited far too long, scarred your ex far too deeply and repeatedly for her to heal from the injuries. Do you appreciate and understand that she can no longer trust you, that she can't fall for (what she may see to be) a manipulative trap to further control her. Will you wholeheartedly understand and appreciate the fact that it is ALL your fault and you don't ever want to feel this way again? Will you use this experience to fuel the fire in your quest to make some much-needed changes in yourself?
I wish you happiness. There are far too many people who are living your life and will end up being lonely, miserable senior citizens who will die alone, because they never seek help. Good luck to you. I hope you will find that control is an illusion....that the harder you try to control others, the more you lose control of yourself. YOU is the most important person you will ever have to learn to control.
P.S. When you really stop to think about it.....your dad really didn't mean to leave you. He left your mother. You children were simply the collateral damage he left behind. If you ever feel like "everyone leaves you".....remember this...Your mother didn't leave you, did she? Not everyone leaves you. (((hug)))
Good for you for getting counselling and trying to fix yourself. I don't know how long you have been subjecting your wife to this abusive behavior, but unfortunately, you may have already killed any chance of mending the relationship with your wife. Have you realized that you caused the thing you most fear?
Perhaps the best outcome you can expect at this point is that your next relationship will be healthier.
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I don't think i have a question i think this is a rant, just tell me what you think.
