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But they're made for each other: Two deceitful, spoiled children. Good for them. It saves two nice people from getting stuck with them forever.
She did you a favor. It doesn't seem that way now, but she did.
Yeah I have heard the "did you a favor" thing a lot and I hope that's true. It's hard to think of meeting someone new and having that same connection but I of course know it's very possible. Today I am a little more sad for the situation than myself, and sad for her, as I truly think that if she had faced our issues in a different way, not a secret affair, we could have had a great outcome.
Sasquatch! It's good to have you back. I am very curious to hear what you think of today's text message (see a few posts above).
Getting back to some of your recent comments, much appreciated as always, by the way...
Your stuff in bold.
She's off having a good time because she has been on the OTHER SIDE of the situation for a long time now and has adjusted to it, while it's still new to you. You're still coping with what is already passe for her. Also, she's got other things to occupy her mind (the other man); you, you're still in the semi-lonely "WTF is happening to me?" stage.
Good point for sure. She is months into the future of this since her affair started a while ago and she may have even resolved to want to leave sooner. The funny thing is that she was buying things for the wedding and planning it literally up until the day we broke up. It was like she kept trying to push the affair aside but it kept winning.
Regarding your comments on her response to the e-mail:
That makes sense to me, too. So it sounds like she was a bit taken aback by the tonal change and taking charge of it all. And I think you will say today's text message of her wanting to make "several small trips" again is her attempt to take back charge. So this is now turning into yet another battle that she is forcing for some reason, where I just want her to take one trip, get her stuff, and go. I guess having no friends that are supporting you or want to help you borrow/load a truck and having no money to pay a service is making this difficult for her. Oh well, should have thought of that before you cheated.
What surprises me is that I thought you were right, my email was my foot down, I am no longer willing to discuss or reason, and what did she do today? She tries to change everything around again. And in a fun, conversational, way, like we're best buds or something. Have a nice Easter!?!? That's insane.
You're still protective -- and that's not entirely wrong. It's a fine line to walk, however, between calling it like it really is, speculating on what MIGHT be and wishing to make sure everyone is given the fairest shake possible. Either way, you dodged a major bullet for down the line.
I guess I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track with her alcohol abuse, since I think my harping on that aspect of her over the past few months is what started everything that happened.
It's ALWAYS easy to say to others how everyone should take the high road and I'm not justifying NOT doing so; merely reiterating that we're all human and screw up from time to time. Where we see what's reasonable is in those who screw up but DON'T keep hammering away at the mistake in the hopes it will fix things. To do otherwise is the definition of insanity.
When I suspected something was up I gave her many opportunities to just sit down and talk, and even when we called off the wedding I took the high road and tried to at least show her I still cared about us. But when the affair came to light and I realized what had been going on all along, that was when I tried to "go dark" / no contact and decided there was nothing left for us to say. Human beings screw up as you say and I would have even listened to her had she wanted to confess this...More than likely still same end result, but at least she could explain, I could hear what I wanted (if I wanted), and she could either apologize/ask forgiveness or say she was happy with her decision to go and that's that.
Your character is what you do when you think no one is watching. Are you a private nose-picker? Then you ARE a nose-picker, despite that you don't do it publicly. Do you have an affair and think you can get away with it? Then whatever front you put up, you're a cheater. There may be circumstances (we've ALL got circumstances), there may be whatever, but in the end we are what we are.
I wondered this about my ex wife who cheated prior to this one...Does she go through life thinking, "I am a cheater? I cheated. I wish I would have been able to leave, not cheat..." etc...Do cheaters think of themselves as cheaters? Like, can they face what they have done? Or do they forever use the same excuses with everyone else that they do the person they cheated on? "I was leaving you anyway..." "Texting isn't cheating..." "We were just friends..." "You have it wrong..." etc. Do they deny that they are sneaky cheaters or do they know it at least themselves? And does it stay with them all their lives even well beyond the relationships they ruined by cheating? In both my cases here, the girl has cheated, been discovered, and left for OM without looking back. Is that how they justify the cheat, that since they didn't try to come back or get away with it long term, that it was just a "breakup"?
By the way I just noticed the front doorknob was unlocked, but not the deadbolt -- I am positive I never just lock one and not the other. It looks like knowing that I was out of town today for Easter she tried to sneak a trip to the house and tried to get in, but since I changed the deadbolt she would not have been able to. Wow! Pretty sure anyway unfortunately not positive. She tried to sneak in. The text must have been a response to that realization. Can't believe she would try to come to the house without me aware of it though, I'd have to know she had been here once I saw the stuff was gone. Wow, she really is getting more and more devious...
I wondered this about my ex wife who cheated prior to this one...Does she go through life thinking, "I am a cheater? I cheated. I wish I would have been able to leave, not cheat..." etc...Do cheaters think of themselves as cheaters? Like, can they face what they have done? Or do they forever use the same excuses with everyone else that they do the person they cheated on? "I was leaving you anyway..." "Texting isn't cheating..." "We were just friends..." "You have it wrong..." etc. Do they deny that they are sneaky cheaters or do they know it at least themselves? And does it stay with them all their lives even well beyond the relationships they ruined by cheating? In both my cases here, the girl has cheated, been discovered, and left for OM without looking back. Is that how they justify the cheat, that since they didn't try to come back or get away with it long term, that it was just a "breakup"?
A couple of things, first off, I cheated when I was married. (I'm now divorced.) I didn't leave for the OM, but I did indeed cheat... and I got caught. I would say that for the first year in my mind it was not my faulty. The whys don't matter, I did feel justified. I'd say it took about three years for me to actually full on accept responsibility for my actions and be able to admit: no matter what was happening, what i did was WRONG. It's been six years since this happened, and know i don't walk around thinking "I am a cheater." I've accepted my actions, atoned in my personal way, and that's it. Walking around torturing myself out of guilt helps no one.
Second - it may be a bit early, but at some point you should consider how it so happened that you were cheated on twice in a row. At best your selection process is out of wack; at worse there is something about you which drives women to cheat. The truth is somewhere in between, and it certainly would not hurt you to come up with some answers.
Thanks for your honest response. That means a lot to me for you to be so open.
I definitely agree the truth is in between. It is a mixture of both. Granted, the women who cheated on me were definitely similar in character and I can see why it would have happened on that basis alone (they were depressed, low self-esteem, and unhappy people in general, with themselves and with life unfortunately). For a while, I made them happy. However, as relationships progress, we all know they typically will "settle" for lack of a better word. You get into routines. They are sometimes hard to break. I am guilty of this as well. Sex becomes routine, affection gets forgotten, you start to take for granted that you will just be together and co-exist. Of course this is wrong. And I feel I am guilty of that to an extent. Granted it "takes two to tango" to take a horrible expression and use it but it makes sense in this situation I feel. If those things are lacking, the affected party needs to communicate their dissatisfaction in a constructive way. Then work together to see if the relationship can continue. And if not, time to part ways. I feel that's a healthy progression of things. For whatever reason though (and I think this is where the personality of the girls who cheated came into play), they felt the need to stray BEFORE they left me...To have a solid alternative tested out and tried before stepping away. And even then, in this case it looks like my fiancee had been thinking of this guy for at least a month or so, possibly more, don't want to know...'Til the day I asked her to move out, she was talking about couples counseling...So it seems that even then, she still wasn't sure but wanted both options.
I certainly will stand up and take account of what I am doing wrong, and also in my choices in partners, however it still amazes me what a person can do to someone who loves them and they loved back as well, when simply leaving the relationship first would make so much more sense and leave a lot less damage.
Thanks for your honest response. That means a lot to me for you to be so open.
I definitely agree the truth is in between. It is a mixture of both. Granted, the women who cheated on me were definitely similar in character and I can see why it would have happened on that basis alone (they were depressed, low self-esteem, and unhappy people in general, with themselves and with life unfortunately). For a while, I made them happy. However, as relationships progress, we all know they typically will "settle" for lack of a better word. You get into routines. They are sometimes hard to break. I am guilty of this as well. Sex becomes routine, affection gets forgotten, you start to take for granted that you will just be together and co-exist. Of course this is wrong. And I feel I am guilty of that to an extent. Granted it "takes two to tango" to take a horrible expression and use it but it makes sense in this situation I feel. If those things are lacking, the affected party needs to communicate their dissatisfaction in a constructive way. Then work together to see if the relationship can continue. And if not, time to part ways. I feel that's a healthy progression of things. For whatever reason though (and I think this is where the personality of the girls who cheated came into play), they felt the need to stray BEFORE they left me...To have a solid alternative tested out and tried before stepping away. And even then, in this case it looks like my fiancee had been thinking of this guy for at least a month or so, possibly more, don't want to know...'Til the day I asked her to move out, she was talking about couples counseling...So it seems that even then, she still wasn't sure but wanted both options.
I certainly will stand up and take account of what I am doing wrong, and also in my choices in partners, however it still amazes me what a person can do to someone who loves them and they loved back as well, when simply leaving the relationship first would make so much more sense and leave a lot less damage.
Why is it that you find depressed women with low self-esteem so attractive? (It isn't a coincidence that you ended up choosing someone with such a lousy personality type TWICE in a row.) Do you enjoy being the one who makes them happy? Because once they start to feel happy without you, or unhappy when with you, they don't need you anymore.
Well, it's not like I go out to find them or anything. They don't introduce themselves that way. I learn over time. In the case of this one, when we first met she was on a high all the time, smiling, happy, just having a ball and loving life. She seems to really get that great high off a new relationship (hence why she is probably so happy right now unfortunately while she is making me suffer).
But over time, as the newness of the relationship wore off, her depression seemed to return and she often said she felt unattractive, sad, going nowhere career-wise, etc. I can't say for sure why when that happens, I don't say "Ok you've gotta go!" other than I am probably as Sasquatch said before a bit of a pushover. I feel like I can "fix" them or bring them happiness, or like the challenge of making them happy...But of course when the depression gets REALLY bad I am not a doctor, not sure what I can do, usually nothing.
In this case she drank to escape the pain and then after a while either the drinking wasn't enough or my pressuring her about the drinking turned it into the affair. I just knew that she had overcome a drug habit and a cigarette habit so I hoped she could overcome anything.
EDIT: I do want to say though, it was sort of the opposite in this case, they don't necessary ever get happy, they get happy at first, then depressed, and when the relationship has gotten to be routine after a few years, and the depression is still weighing on them, THIS is what I thinks causes the cheating. They never got happy and THEN left.
Well, it's not like I go out to find them or anything. They don't introduce themselves that way. I learn over time. In the case of this one, when we first met she was on a high all the time, smiling, happy, just having a ball and loving life. She seems to really get that great high off a new relationship (hence why she is probably so happy right now unfortunately while she is making me suffer).
But over time, as the newness of the relationship wore off, her depression seemed to return and she often said she felt unattractive, sad, going nowhere career-wise, etc. I can't say for sure why when that happens, I don't say "Ok you've gotta go!" other than I am probably as Sasquatch said before a bit of a pushover. I feel like I can "fix" them or bring them happiness, or like the challenge of making them happy...But of course when the depression gets REALLY bad I am not a doctor, not sure what I can do, usually nothing.
In this case she drank to escape the pain and then after a while either the drinking wasn't enough or my pressuring her about the drinking turned it into the affair. I just knew that she had overcome a drug habit and a cigarette habit so I hoped she could overcome anything.
EDIT: I do want to say though, it was sort of the opposite in this case, they don't necessary ever get happy, they get happy at first, then depressed, and when the relationship has gotten to be routine after a few years, and the depression is still weighing on them, THIS is what I thinks causes the cheating. They never got happy and THEN left.
That makes sense.
Do yourself a favor, do not date a woman of this same type again. You've done it twice now, no more. If you so happen to end up with this type again, the relationship will end in the very same way. Your radar should be a little sharper by now, so you are spotting this type within a matter of days.
Yeah, that's a no-brainer moving forward. It just makes me wonder how people with those types of issues are ever able to stay in a relationship. Maybe it just takes the right type of person to care for them all their lives. Not sure.
AONE, thanks, I am trying to get to that stage. Right now it is difficult. I would never hold this against a new woman of course, just a shame I picked two of the same personality type with the same result.
NEW DEVELOPMENT: So you all saw the e-mail and sent and the reply yesterday. Now today, out of nowhere, a text from guess who:
Text from xxx-xxx-xxxx:
"Hey! Was wondering if I could grab some more stuff bc I'm gonna have to make a few smaller trips. Let me know what works for u, hope u r having a good Easter"
Are you KIDDING me!?!? "Hope you are having a good Easter" 2 weeks after I learn you cheated, you lied, and you made sure to let me know you are spending YOUR Easter weekend on a beach vacation with the guy you left me for!?!? What the heck is going on here? Is she nuts?
I also read this as, she doesn't want to rent/drive a big truck, and has no friends with trucks and OM doesn't want to come carry boxes and face me (likely). So now she's back trying to use her compact car to load up as much as she can (which means many trips). This also means the first time she comes here won't be the last, and she'll see her stuff in the garage and freak out and all that even before the day she comes for the "big" stuff.
I'm not sure what to do here. Tell her one day or nothing? Tell her do it all Wednesday and that's it? Tell her one trip and that's it? I mean could she make this any more difficult? Honestly I don't even want to reply at all. But I do want this stuff out. The best I can think of is:
"Just rent a truck, come over Wednesday, get it all, and let's be done with it."
I was also thinking of letting her know in advance it's all in the garage already and there's no need to come into the house at all.
What do ya'll think? Is that ridiculous or what? I just want it over!
The simplest response here (this is her way of gently taking control back by putting things in a more convenient light for herself and putting the timing back on her terms) is to send her a text/email which says:
"I've planned my week around Wednesday since you already agreed to that -- sorry, but those are the breaks! Hope you had a nice Easter too. See you Wednesday!"
Make sure all doors and windows are locked, and make certain you're unavailable Monday and Tuesday. Go out and eat, go to a friend's house, work overtime -- whatever the heck it takes to be elsewhere with your mind occupied and your time just as visibly occupied. This works tactically but is inarguably YOU GETTING ON WITH YOUR LIFE, and there is no law or moral code against it, nothing which says you have to go back and somehow be more caring and compassionate toward this person. Also, she WILL call if she gets desperate, so whenever you answer the phone and it's her, say "Hey, I'm busy at the moment, can I call you back later? Thanks!" and hang up without waiting for an answer. Don't call back, you're busy at the moment and for several moments afterward.
If she calls, writes or texts and "explains" that she can't work the timing and can't find friends to help on Wednesday, text back with the telephone number of the guy she's cheating with and the message:
"If you can't find anyone to help you load boxes, try this guy: XXX-XXX-XXXX. I'm pretty sure he's available to fulfill all your needs, including moving. Hope you find some folks! See you Wednesday!"
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