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Well that would be a new one, coming back. The first one never showed signs but you never know. The last girl I dated for a shorter term, no cheating but we separated over differences, did one of those "test the waters" emails a few months out, I recall. Just a hello type thing that was more meant as a "Hey, I'm still single, are you?" type of thing. That could come from this one, too, I guess, though I am not sure she is even aware of how much damage she did to me and to us by her actions as well as her lies (I have come to terms with the fact it's not JUST the actions, but the direct lies when confronted about all the actions that made it doubly bad). Could you imagine being with someone, where every second they are out at a party or bar without you, heck even in their office on their computer without you, did they start talking to someone else? To the OM again? I mean these are the thoughts that will terrify anyone from getting back with a partner who does this. And this is all putting aside the alcohol issues, and the issue of calling off the wedding (which I AM starting to see as a big favor, given that she knew what she was doing was wrong, and the relationship would never last, even if she managed to stop for a while)...So over all else I got over the wedding cancellation. But that's ironically what got us separating and then brought OM affair to light.
All that said, I do intend to be recovered hopefully sooner than later. Today was a big step. Getting her here, not giving any emotion back because I knew she had to go no matter what, detaching and moving on. If all goes well Wednesday, that should be our last planned dealing and then NC and true healing can begin anew. But I think I am already making steps.
Really if I am wrong I am a moron but it sounds to me like she just quietly wants to take her stuff and go. After all she tried to do this all yesterday when I wasn't there. Even less drama then really. She has never once tried to take anything that wasn't hers.
She's wanting you to THINK that, nevermind what she actually whats.
Remember, she's the one that scr*wed YOU over, she's the one that broke your trust, she's the one that cheated and lied and falsified her feelings.
She is going to use you as much as she can to get whatever SHE wants, to HECK with your feelings.
Kick rocks at her, she's a skank and NOT worth your time or energy.
Tell her to GTFO, and take her lying, skanky, cheating a** with her, and do it in one trip, or her stuff is up for grabs on the corner.
I agree, you did well, it's tough to be an a$$ when you're not, and especially to someone you have so many emotions attached to.
Honestly, if she really wanted you back, and if she was WORTHY of even the thought of forgiveness, she would've sat you down, spilled everything that happened and owned up to all of it. She wouldn't make excuses for her behavior, she's just own up to it, say she effed up, and apologize one of the deepest apologies she could. Only then would she be even worth the consideration of potentially salvaging the relationship. But she didn't do that. She tried to get YOU to carry the burden, to bring it up, to talk it out, and she probably was hoping you'd be the one to apologize.
But you didn't, so many men WOULD apologize to HER in that situation, but you held it. You're strong, not weak, just because you have emotions and couldn't be a jerk to her doesn't make you any less of a man. The fact you're handling this as well as you have so far show's a lot more character than other men I know.
Good job so far, I can't imagine what it's like in your position, but I wish you luck.
Well everyone wants an update so I will be honest with it here, despite probably taking licks I just want to be honest. I really did the best I could, knowing that I don't do "a-hole" well despite the absolute jerk I should be. It's hard for someone to change so quickly.
First off I will say everything went very well. Too well really, to the point where it was almost friendly. I was trying for civil, I really was, and did the best I could.
Most of the exchanges I list ahead happened sporadically while she was here, but I did not set foot in the garage, lift a single box or move a single thing, and did my own thing as much as possible until she had a question.
Of course she looked dynamite, but she probably knew that in coming over here. She asked if she could take a last walk around the house (I assume maybe her way of saying goodbye to it) to look for things and found nothing of hers I missed, no disputes or problems.
She asked me how I was doing, I smiled, nodded and said fine (nothing more, though it seemed she wanted more), did not ask how she was doing (though I made this mistake a little later). Then asked how was my Easter? Again fine, didn't ask her about hers (since I knew she was here trying to come in when I was gone). She packed more things and then tried to lighten things up saying her favorite stuffed animal she always slept with "missed me". I did not respond but maybe with a small nod. Seemed to bug her. She was trying to elicit emotional response I guess. I then made mistake #1, asked how she was doing, she said "not good, but that's ok".
We resolved the desk issue, she said she would take it but only to sell it, no room in her new place (with her "roommates" she was sure to tell me, I asked no further details or details at all), so I decided to make her a fair offer to keep the desk and save me the hassle of taking it apart and moving it (I like it anyway). There's no way she was going to just leave it there for nothing and I really didn't want to take it apart and move it to the garage. I wrote a check which she ended up leaving behind. I will put it out with the rest of her things in the garage.
She asked where her glass shelves were, again saying they match her new roommates' furniture. I told her they might be somewhat broken and she was okay with that which surprised me. I will have them ready for Wednesday. Forgot about those.
Since there's still a lot of stuff left here, she asked me how many trucks she will need to come back with on Wednesday and what time works for me, I told her same time as before, just sort of shrugged off on the trucks.
It was then obvious she was getting upset as business was totally done now. No desk to move, everything left in the garage, no more need for her to ever come into this house. She noticed a pile of incense burners we had bought together a while back and asked for one, saying "You are probably going to tell me to F*** off when I ask, but can I have one of those? You know how they make me happy." I thought for a sec and just grabbed one and handed it to her (another mistake I am sure) but ultimately thought, at the end of the day, what difference does that make really.
She then put out her arms for a hug. "Bye", she said. Gosh I wanted to stonewall her here and just say "leave". But the stupid weak sap sucker in me just decided this is the end of 4 years, this is the moment you will remember when it ended, so I put one arm out, and gave her a hug back. It lingered a few brief moments.
She started to sob. "I do love you", she said through her tears. I did not say a word. She turned and walked out the door silently. After she left, I went to a private corner, and darn it all, I cried, cried for the death of what could have been, for her, for us, and for this whole crazy mess.
I am glad the finish line is almost here. You can see how hard it is and how they can toy with your emotions.
As awful as this experience again was, as much as it hurts...I just couldn't be the jerk I wanted to be today. But soon, she will be gone.
Go easy on me. I am only human. Chances of her crawling back seem likely, but I won't let her come back. Trust is just too far gone.
You did just fine and the situation came out far, far better than it might have.
She dropped the "I DO love you" bomb, you didn't respond. Major victory on your part. When women say that what they're really saying is "I do love you BUT..." and filling in the gaps with myriad reasons they will NOT be with you.
Had you responded it would have seemed weak; by not responding, you make it more official that it's over.
You waited until afterward and in private to do so, and I assure you, tears are NOT unmanly -- afterward and in private. We all have emotions and sometimes there's a buildup that just gets the better of us. It's part of what makes you human rather than a glorified monkey in a skin-suit.
Never forget: The difference between a MAN and a WEAKLING is often just a matter of timing.
Nothing wrong with a friendly hug there at the end; I like that you did it one-armed, it's a good sign -- friendly, but no commitment. More a stroke of luck than of genius, but a good thing. It's a sign of how you're feeling, still hurt over this kind of breakup in a long-term relationship (normal) but feeling the distance which has grown between you.
Just keep maintaining your composure through the end of this and when the last of her stuff is gone (fingers crossed that this all continues well) you'll be free.
It won't feel that way at first; it will feel more like you're ALONE.
One of my favorite quotes is by H.G. Wells:
"You have learned something. That almost always feels at first as if you have lost something."
That obviously doesn't apply to every single lesson in life but it does apply to a lot of the big ones. It feels at first as though one has lost something because often those big lessons are accompanies by a shattering of illusions which once were a source of some comfort -- and no longer are.
But that's part of the beauty of Life: It goes on. Little by little one becomes accustomed to the harsh lessons and develops a bit of callus, a thicker skin. The lesson seems less and less harsh until one day it's just a thing you know rather than a lesson you learned the hard way.
And this girl who's made such an impact? For a while you'll continue to dwell on this, allowing it to eat away at you with various coulda-woulda-shoulda scenarios. And then one day you'll be busy and suddenly realize you haven't thought about it at all for a few hours. It will come crashing back in for a while, bother you anew, but the next day you'll find yourself busy with something else and it will happen over, and over and over again.
Then you'll think of her only passingly and there won't be any hurt at all, just a little face-palm as you wonder how you failed to see the signs which might have saved you some time, money and heartache. Then you'll shrug and shake your head before going to think about and do something else.
Well that would be a new one, coming back. The first one never showed signs but you never know. The last girl I dated for a shorter term, no cheating but we separated over differences, did one of those "test the waters" emails a few months out, I recall. Just a hello type thing that was more meant as a "Hey, I'm still single, are you?" type of thing. That could come from this one, too, I guess, though I am not sure she is even aware of how much damage she did to me and to us by her actions as well as her lies (I have come to terms with the fact it's not JUST the actions, but the direct lies when confronted about all the actions that made it doubly bad). Could you imagine being with someone, where every second they are out at a party or bar without you, heck even in their office on their computer without you, did they start talking to someone else? To the OM again? I mean these are the thoughts that will terrify anyone from getting back with a partner who does this. And this is all putting aside the alcohol issues, and the issue of calling off the wedding (which I AM starting to see as a big favor, given that she knew what she was doing was wrong, and the relationship would never last, even if she managed to stop for a while)...So over all else I got over the wedding cancellation. But that's ironically what got us separating and then brought OM affair to light.
All that said, I do intend to be recovered hopefully sooner than later. Today was a big step. Getting her here, not giving any emotion back because I knew she had to go no matter what, detaching and moving on. If all goes well Wednesday, that should be our last planned dealing and then NC and true healing can begin anew. But I think I am already making steps.
Down the line this woman may be back. She's obviously found you're capable of stiffening your spine, which is something women want. She'll also fail in whatever she left for (relationship or eventually-fading sex) and she'll start to wonder what she gave up. For all her expectations you didn't meet you definitely offered security. A woman whose expectations of security are met begins to wonder about adventure. A woman who satisfies her craving for adventure begins to yearn for security once more, until she's feeling secure and craves adventure, and so on...
Every time you find yourself wondering what might have been I want you to picture her face at the moment she lied to you about the affair and you realized she was lying to you.
Down the line when she gets to messaging you and trying to be friendly, every time you flip open your phone and realize it's from her I want you to ask yourself what she thought of you at the moment she was grinding out a reverse-cowgirl on another man's magic wand, ask yourself what her opinion of you was at that moment while you sat all ignorant and unaware across town thinking she loved you. Picture what she actually THOUGHT of you during the act.
If she tries to come back to you or ever even remotely suggests such a thing, I want you to think of all the times she got up after sex and "freaked out", and to wonder whether she ever pulled that crap with him. I want you to wonder whether she ever had sex with him then came home and had sex with you.
It's a common thing with women who feel some guilt. They have a tryst, feel guilt, come home and shower and scrub themselves as clean as they can -- and then they eagerly push their man into the sack and try to screw the guilt away.
If I really do my man HARD then I can erase the other guy and prove to myself that I'm actually faithful! The other one was... well, it wasn't really infidelity, it was just an accident, wasn't it? I slipped, but I'm making up for it now and if I do this enough then it really doesn't count.
(Right now there's a report going out to the Hive Queen and I'm now a marked man.)
Down the line this woman may be back. She's obviously found you're capable of stiffening your spine, which is something women want. She'll also fail in whatever she left for (relationship or eventually-fading sex) and she'll start to wonder what she gave up. For all her expectations you didn't meet you definitely offered security. A woman whose expectations of security are met begins to wonder about adventure. A woman who satisfies her craving for adventure begins to yearn for security once more, until she's feeling secure and craves adventure, and so on...
She might test the waters someday, as you make a good point here. There is security, and then there is adventure. Unfortunately they usually don't both go hand in hand, because by nature security is not as exciting. The thing with her personality is, and this is something I don't feel she is even capable of without a lot of therapy or soul searching or whatever, is I guess sort of a full confession. It's too late for all of that anyway, though I'd have entertained listening up to this point, if she wanted to at least try to lay it all out there and explain herself, at least what I wanted to know. But to this day, never once has she even truly owned up to it or faced what she has done with me. It's all sort of unspoken. She is a coward! I guess if you don't talk about it, it never happened.
It all sort of dawned on me soon after I realized what had happened. Her friends knew, they URGED her to tell me. She didn't so they did. I think she somehow thought we could just "break up" or "take a break" and the door would be open for return. And if there was no affair that could have been possible. So maybe she thought that could happen. But this goes to show you how she was only living for the moment...That phone bill, I mean, when it came, there was no denying it. How could she not realize the tale it would tell? Did she not realize she sent this guy 1,000 texts in a matter of weeks? Did she think I would not see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
Every time you find yourself wondering what might have been I want you to picture her face at the moment she lied to you about the affair and you realized she was lying to you.
I have already done that even in dealing with her now, even. I thought about this yesterday. It made me think, any compassion I have for this girl, knowing what she did, how can I have it? It really helps you keep your emotions in check when you think about the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
Down the line when she gets to messaging you and trying to be friendly, every time you flip open your phone and realize it's from her I want you to ask yourself what she thought of you at the moment she was grinding out a reverse-cowgirl on another man's magic wand, ask yourself what her opinion of you was at that moment while you sat all ignorant and unaware across town thinking she loved you. Picture what she actually THOUGHT of you during the act.
Yeah, she is one of those girls who would love nothing more than to be friends I am sure. "Oh, we used to date, now we are FRIENDS!" Yippee. I don't really need her as a friend. Whether we could have been friends after a normal, not lying/cheating breakup, I dunno but I doubt it. I honestly don't know how divorcees with kids who need to keep in touch do it, though I guess you just learn to live with it like anything else.
You know what's funny, at first it was the vision of the sex that bothered me, but I still to this point don't know how much, if any, happened, I assume by now it did (and I think she is one of those who will say it's not CHEATING until then, before that, any kissing, talking, etc was just friendly, yeah right)...Despite all that I don't even care. I have had sex with people before her, she has before me, and that's the way it is. The emotional connection and the LYING are what got me more than even the sex. But you are right in that the betrayal of that act is where the anger lies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
If she tries to come back to you or ever even remotely suggests such a thing, I want you to think of all the times she got up after sex and "freaked out", and to wonder whether she ever pulled that crap with him. I want you to wonder whether she ever had sex with him then came home and had sex with you.
Yeah I still don't know if this happened and maybe never will. We hadn't had sex much in the past month since her overnight trips due to the stress that was putting on the relationship anyway, all the fighting, etc, so at least it wasn't an ongoing thing. Still sickening though as I am not the guy who does the multiple-partner type thing, never have been, never will. One at a time. I don't play the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
It's a common thing with women who feel some guilt. They have a tryst, feel guilt, come home and shower and scrub themselves as clean as they can -- and then they eagerly push their man into the sack and try to screw the guilt away.
If I really do my man HARD then I can erase the other guy and prove to myself that I'm actually faithful! The other one was... well, it wasn't really infidelity, it was just an accident, wasn't it? I slipped, but I'm making up for it now and if I do this enough then it really doesn't count.
(Right now there's a report going out to the Hive Queen and I'm now a marked man.)
Keen observation I think. Sort of like people who do a bad deed think that if they do 10 good deeds it erases the bad ones. "How many times do I need to have sex with him to erase the time I did it with the other guy?" That type of mentality. Erase is a great word there. The funny thing about the human mind is that, in most cases, even if you try to convince it one thing, it knows deep down what the truth is. I think this is what caused things to get worse for us as the month went on. Her guilt grew, drinking got worse, every time she saw me was a reminder of the guilt, every time with him there was freedom, so the natural progression, get away from me.
If we ever talked again, and I don't see why we would, it would be for her to tell me what I wanted to know, and then for me to tell her, how could you ever think I could trust you again. And you know what, these type of situations, you probably COULD trust someone again...for a few months. They'd be good, always check in, give you passwords, open access, whatever...Then as time went on, and the relationship settled again, they're not home from work on time...they start spending more time alone at the computer...and maybe it's just that, but that feeling in the back of your mind, ALWAYS being...Are they starting again? Is the cycle starting over? They did it once, they can do it again. That's what makes it impossible to go back to a cheater.
She's wanting you to THINK that, nevermind what she actually whats.
Remember, she's the one that scr*wed YOU over, she's the one that broke your trust, she's the one that cheated and lied and falsified her feelings.
She is going to use you as much as she can to get whatever SHE wants, to HECK with your feelings.
Kick rocks at her, she's a skank and NOT worth your time or energy.
Tell her to GTFO, and take her lying, skanky, cheating a** with her, and do it in one trip, or her stuff is up for grabs on the corner.
I thought of this approach, I really did. I just figured regardless of how I handle this the end result is the same so I did what was right for me (the heck with her really, like you said). So I took the high road.
A couple more days, and it should be done with 100%.
I agree, you did well, it's tough to be an a$$ when you're not, and especially to someone you have so many emotions attached to.
Honestly, if she really wanted you back, and if she was WORTHY of even the thought of forgiveness, she would've sat you down, spilled everything that happened and owned up to all of it. She wouldn't make excuses for her behavior, she's just own up to it, say she effed up, and apologize one of the deepest apologies she could. Only then would she be even worth the consideration of potentially salvaging the relationship. But she didn't do that. She tried to get YOU to carry the burden, to bring it up, to talk it out, and she probably was hoping you'd be the one to apologize.
But you didn't, so many men WOULD apologize to HER in that situation, but you held it. You're strong, not weak, just because you have emotions and couldn't be a jerk to her doesn't make you any less of a man. The fact you're handling this as well as you have so far show's a lot more character than other men I know.
Good job so far, I can't imagine what it's like in your position, but I wish you luck.
Thanks. I am just not a a$$ type personality so I tried to do this in the best way I could, in the end, while still trying to be firm about it all.
Your second paragraph above is SO KEY to my take on this whole situation. That moment NEVER came. If she had any chance at all, ANY, remote as it even was, there would have needed to be that full disclosure moment, all her, laying it out there, the apologies, the admission of total guilt, the deepness to it, as you say...Never ever happened. And no way was I going to give her satisfaction of saying THIS was my fault. Would have loved to have had that talk, even would have loved to get to the point where we could have potentially discussed what actions on my part helped lead up to it (I think even those who cheat need something to push them to it, maybe some need a more gentle nudge than others, but still). I would have gone there. Did she ever even try? Nope.
Thanks a lot for the really kind supportive words. This girl meant the world to me and maybe over the years I lost sight of that and so did she, as the relationship grew secure and stable, the "taking for granted" aspect kicked in and that's the way it went. So of course it is hard to not only see it end, but to look at that other person saying goodbye to you and realize despite living near each other this could be the last time you ever lay eyes on one another. It's a tough one. But it's what had to happen.
I think you handled the visit to get her stuff perfectly! The ONLY thing I would have done differently was when she asked for one of the burners I would have given them both to her! Just to say that you didn't want the memory there.
I think you handled the visit to get her stuff perfectly! The ONLY thing I would have done differently was when she asked for one of the burners I would have given them both to her! Just to say that you didn't want the memory there.
Way to go!
Thanks, that's a good point. They wouldn't be a trigger for me anyway. Luckily I was pretty well established here at my house before she even moved in so the place hasn't changed much, and she hadn't contributed much either. It should help things normalize and help me move on much better.
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