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Well folks, here it is...I had been in NC since Wednesday...
Just came in via text message late tonight (Sunday) at 11:00:
Just wanted to tell you how truly sorry I am for everything...I'll miss u
I'm not responding to this tonight obviously but I am going to think about it. I know the proper thing is probably a simple "Me too" or even a "Bite me" (haha) but I gotta tell you, reading this breaks my heart a little bit. If only this had come weeks ago. This is the first apology I have seen since all of this started. And not only that but in her life with me she's never really apologized for anything so it's a surprise.
So I guess I got what I wanted. Sigh.
Do not respond to this -- at all, not so much as a tweet on your twitter.
Nothing, nada, niente, nichego, zilch, zip, zero!
This is NOT her responding with genuine regret; this is a tiny, unobtrusive feeler to see if you're still thinking about her AND NOTHING MORE.
In a few weeks you'll hear from some mutual friends or acquaintances that she asked them how you were doing. If they're REAL friends, they'll lie on your behalf and tell her about all the great things you're out doing, how you're having the time of your life and they've never, ever seen you so happy.
Never, ever give her the satisfaction of knowing she caused you real damage. People like that don't care about the damage they caused, they care that they have enough power to cause damage.
Years ago a woman did everything in her power to destroy me emotionally. She dropped me two weeks before the wedding, was cheating, ripped me off for thousands of dollars since we'd been living off MY paycheck (since it was all "our" money) and putting hers away for our marriage and honeymoon, tore a child out of my life (her daughter, but the little girl preferred me because I provided stability; in the end I think this was part of the problem) tried to hose me at our workplace by lying about my stability (horribly important when your career rides on a security clearance) and three weeks later was married to the guy she cheated with. And AFTER that, got a credit card in my name, which I was forced to track down. She paid it off and dumped it when she got word I was tracking it (she'd been ripping off my mailbox, until I changed the locks) and the credit card company was NOT helpful (this was nearly 15 years ago, ID theft was new, they weren't taking measures yet).
Six months after all this, she spoke to mutual friends who were married, and was asking how I was doing. They lied on my behalf (I didn't ask them to, I was unaware of this, but the wife apparently did this), and when I asked the wife why she replied "I've dumped a lot of guys in my life, and talked to a lot of women who have dumped guys. The only reason you ask about them later is because you want to know if they're still in pain over you because it's a HUGE boost to the ego when they are. You know you really meant something to them, and you can just pretend you're concerned if anyone asks."
Truer words were never spoken.
Lots of women will tell you otherwise; do yourself a favor and ignore them. If the women doing these things actually cared, then these situations wouldn't happen in the first place, now would they? If she cared but couldn't be with you, she'd leave instead of cheating, she'd talk instead of messing with you, etc.
I know, right? Sort of like saying "I don't really miss you right now, but I think I will someday."
Really it's nothing more than a one line text. I'm still recalling 4 years of mostly good memories so of course it's nice to at least see a twinge of regret whether it be genuine or not. It is a small step in the right direction for HER to at least realize what she has lost and the consequences of her actions. It gives me a little hope for her.
Of course that's assuming it's genuine, and there's really no way to know for sure. I'll respond to US's post later (I want to give it time) but the other theory here is it's a plain manipulative thing to boost her own ego. Yes of course this could also be the case. I think if there's anything we learned here is that there are patterns, but no absolutes. Folks here were convinced there would be major confrontations, police action, accusations, problems and the like and we had none of that last week. That didn't make it any easier, of course, but it shows that there's not always a set pattern, but there are commonalities in these situations.
If any of what is going on is even remotely true, it at least shows me that she has a twinge of regret and that's at least something I can use in my recovery, to know that we had a good thing going here, and that she might realize that too.
More later. Thanks for the ongoing support, you folks are the best.
.... Folks here were convinced there would be major confrontations, police action, accusations, problems and the like and we had none of that last week. That didn't make it any easier, of course, but it shows that there's not always a set pattern, but there are commonalities in these situations.
Not everyone here thought that and you have to realize that with limited information (i.e., we're not there to see everything), most people would be to err on the side of caution. Fortunately, you didn't need to, but think about the troubles you'd have if it went the other way and you weren't prepared. One of my son's friends went to jail after he broke up with an ex and she made accusations. I think it happened over a month later, so you have to be careful.
Your best recourse is not to respond. "Me too," absolves her of the blame as she'd take it that you're at fault too. "Bite me," can p*ss her off causing her to get revenge. Neither helps you in the long run. Best to say nothing and let her stew about it.
She was sitting at home all alone with her thoughts....and maybe a twinge of regret.
Please, don't respond. It won't change a thing. Not.one.thing.
You sound like a marrying type of guy. You will find a great woman to call your wife. She wasn't it.
Thanks for this reply. I am not afraid of marriage, at least I wasn't, but naturally an experience like this one changes things a bit. I realize it's unfair to the "next girl" because it's not her fault but still, after being married a year, having that fall apart, and with this last 4 year relationship with an engagement failing, it naturally is going to make me timid for a while.
The text was nothing more than like you said, alone with her thoughts, perhaps a small bit of regret, but it didn't change a thing, like you said -- The situation is what it is, and that's too bad. But that is the hand she dealt to herself now. It's hard to lose someone who has been a major part of your life for 4 years. I'm realizing now that no matter how happy she is with her "new life" that there were great things about us she will miss too, and does miss...Unfortunately they just were not enough to keep her here, she was willing to give it all up and that's where it wound up.
Thanks for sharing and for your support. It's so great to see that you have come through it all and are doing well.
Your best recourse is not to respond. "Me too," absolves her of the blame as she'd take it that you're at fault too. "Bite me," can p*ss her off causing her to get revenge. Neither helps you in the long run. Best to say nothing and let her stew about it.
Yeah I wouldn't ever respond angrily anyway, because our breakup, despite a little bumpy patches here and there, was about as civil as they come in the end. In a weird way, I almost wish it was uglier, because it would make all this easier. The fact that we parted on civil terms makes it even sadder really -- We're not two people who hate each other...And as hard as I try even for what she did in the end I can't sit here and hate her, so that's weird. I know I'm supposed to for the lying and cheating but ultimately I didn't own her, it's her life, and she can choose to live it the way she wants.
It is sad to see she'll miss me (not that she misses me in the present, as LNTT said, devious use of tense there, whether conscious or not) because I know I will miss her as well, at least the good stuff, but then again, I guess that's what makes breakups so difficult. If there wasn't anything I would miss, this would be a heck of a lot easier.
Do not respond to this -- at all, not so much as a tweet on your twitter.
Nothing, nada, niente, nichego, zilch, zip, zero!
This is NOT her responding with genuine regret; this is a tiny, unobtrusive feeler to see if you're still thinking about her AND NOTHING MORE.
In a few weeks you'll hear from some mutual friends or acquaintances that she asked them how you were doing. If they're REAL friends, they'll lie on your behalf and tell her about all the great things you're out doing, how you're having the time of your life and they've never, ever seen you so happy.
Never, ever give her the satisfaction of knowing she caused you real damage. People like that don't care about the damage they caused, they care that they have enough power to cause damage.
Years ago a woman did everything in her power to destroy me emotionally. She dropped me two weeks before the wedding, was cheating, ripped me off for thousands of dollars since we'd been living off MY paycheck (since it was all "our" money) and putting hers away for our marriage and honeymoon, tore a child out of my life (her daughter, but the little girl preferred me because I provided stability; in the end I think this was part of the problem) tried to hose me at our workplace by lying about my stability (horribly important when your career rides on a security clearance) and three weeks later was married to the guy she cheated with. And AFTER that, got a credit card in my name, which I was forced to track down. She paid it off and dumped it when she got word I was tracking it (she'd been ripping off my mailbox, until I changed the locks) and the credit card company was NOT helpful (this was nearly 15 years ago, ID theft was new, they weren't taking measures yet).
Six months after all this, she spoke to mutual friends who were married, and was asking how I was doing. They lied on my behalf (I didn't ask them to, I was unaware of this, but the wife apparently did this), and when I asked the wife why she replied "I've dumped a lot of guys in my life, and talked to a lot of women who have dumped guys. The only reason you ask about them later is because you want to know if they're still in pain over you because it's a HUGE boost to the ego when they are. You know you really meant something to them, and you can just pretend you're concerned if anyone asks."
Truer words were never spoken.
Lots of women will tell you otherwise; do yourself a favor and ignore them. If the women doing these things actually cared, then these situations wouldn't happen in the first place, now would they? If she cared but couldn't be with you, she'd leave instead of cheating, she'd talk instead of messing with you, etc.
NEVER forget that.
US,
As always thanks for your reply. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't good to see that text because it's what I wanted, I guess -- At least the appearance of some sort of regret to validate the fact that our relationship had at least meant something to her at some point. I realize what you're saying is that it could have all just been a selfish move on her part, too, so I will take that into account.
The good news in all of this is that I am not damaged. Yes I post here and I talk to you good people about what's going on. But I am surviving, and living well. I am recovering quickly and not dwelling in the past. I think each day I get to a better place and considering it's still only been a few weeks since this really came to light, I'm ahead of the game in most cases.
US, I am so sad to read your story there. No wonder you are so insightful on all this. You have been through the worst of it. I hope you are in a better place now, obviously you have learned a lot and been so helpful to me so that shows me you have overcome all that mess you went through.
Honestly I don't feel my ex is out to cause me any more pain, if anything else her message is an attempt to feel better herself. I never got that apology, we never really even talked about it, she ran away and didn't face what happened...That is her M.O. though, when there's a problem, run and hide, hope it goes away, sweep it under the rug. Big or small. It might get hidden from others but she can't hide it from herself. And this is a big one for her to live with. In time, I imagine she will come to terms with it like others here have posted. It's still pretty fresh now. Just like for me, the freshness of the betrayal, and for her, the freshness of what she did to a guy who did his best to take care of her for the last 4 years. It has to be hard to look in the mirror in those quiet moments.
I guess I take a little solace in the fact she might at least have some regret in there somewhere. It makes the last 4 years at least seem like they meant something to her. If she really needs an ego boost to know she is hurting me, well that's terrible, I like to think she's not THAT wicked, after all I think she wanted out of this relationship, yes, but I don't think her intent was ever to cause me a bunch of pain in the process of it all.
We'll see what happens, I am back into NC, and figure that might be the last text ever though I guess some here may speculate otherwise. Much like I will miss her less over time, I imagine the same effect will happen with her, too.
Don't be sad on my behalf, although I understand it's a normal, human reaction for any compassionate being.
My own situation was a real eye-opener regarding women. This was the same woman I posted about in another thread, the woman who was watching the movie Rob Roy with me and made a comment.
We'd been growing more and more distant for a while despite my best efforts to get her to talk to me about what was apparently bothering her (all to no avail). During the movie there was one scene where Liam Neeson's character looks adoringly at his wife. My SO sat there for a few seconds and then said "I remember when you used to look at me that way."
I was stunned-yet-not-surprised, if that makes any sense. It stung because I loved her in a way I'd never loved before in my life. I'd been married once before and made a lot of mistakes, errors I was determined not to repeat, and so I worked very, very hard with this woman. I worked to better myself for the sake of the family and our joint future, I worked to keep lines of communication open, I worked to make sure we had both effort AND enjoyment in our lives. I WORKED -- HARD!
Life got in the way; the "honeymoon" stage of any new relationship simply has to wear off somewhat as situations and the world around us come to bear, but I did my best to remain conscious of this and try to keep things alive.
Yet here was this woman whom I loved dearly, loved achingly, and she was making this remark.
I replied "I never stopped looking at you that way. You just stopped noticing."
Funny thing: Nearly 15 years later I learned through mutual acquaintances on Facebook (the military can be a small world) that she and the guy she cheated with are still together -- and that's good. Granted, three months after they were married I learned at work he was cheating on her, but we sometimes get what we deserve. Not always, but sometimes.
Still, for a long time after we parted I wondered -- what did he have that I didn't? The answer wasn't simple, yet it really WAS amazingly simple... and yet not.
The answer: Not all couples work out and you can't please everyone.
In my first marriage I felt like I was working but after divorce and in retrospect, once I got over the bitterness phase, I realized I was a solid 50 percent to blame for the way things went. Sometimes I was to blame for being childish or selfish, and sometimes I was to blame because I PUT UP WITH her selfishness or unreasonable nature, trying to accomodate it.
Anyone can tell you that's a bad move, but it FEELS at the time like you're trying to be mature about things when in fact you're being wimpy about them.
In the relationship with this woman I look back and know I did nothing wrong, I just wasn't the man she wanted.
I was a rebound for her, what she needed at the time but I wasn't what she wanted once she got her feet back under her. I was incredibly caring, amazingly understanding, helpful and accomodating, supportive; I took care of both her and her daughter, going to great lengths to make sure they were both secure and well. When her daughter was kicked out of every daycare facility on post and Mom didn't know what to do I was the guy who found a place which dealt with problem children, I was the one who spoke at length with the woman who ran the place and settled on a course of action and I was the one who kept stability and consistency up for the little girl. The result was a happy child who chased after me and called me Daddy and adored me (which never really sat well with Mom).
I was all things wonderful -- except I wasn't Mr. Right for her.
And when she decided she was finished, as time drew near for the wedding, she came to resent me more and more. Rather than talking to me, even to say that she couldn't be with me, she found reasons to turn simple comments into fights, reasons to turn me into a monster in her own eyes.
When I was trying to be reasonable I was really just "trying to be difficult".
When I pointed out errors in logic I was "trying to make her look stupid".
When I asked what was wrong I was "patronizing" her.
Sometimes you really can't do anything right, the kindest intentions make the other person hate you more and more.
Ultimately she found reasons to have us "take a break" which resulted in my moving out. For the next two months I drove myself insane trying to cope with it all before I began to put the pieces together.
She had another man, her safety net, and he WAS what she wanted. He wasn't a rebound because that was me. I was the guy who put her feet under her, HE was the one she wanted once she felt solid enough to venture out.
She later admitted to a mutual lady friend that she missed the cooking and missed the sex but definitely didn't miss me. And yet -- this same woman asked six months after our breakup how I was doing, wanted to know what was going on in my life.
Now, does that make any sense to you? Not if you're really trying to understand her concern, it doesn't. But when you take into account my female friend's response that I was having the time of my life and the fact that she never asked about me again (although she did go get that credit card in my name), it makes perfect sense. She needed an ego boost one day, so if a guy she nearly destroyed was still dying over her, then it meant she was worthwhile. When it turned out he wasn't, it was an affront.
You can't please some people.
Your situation, this woman who just ended things with you... There's a part of her that knows you were a good guy and down the line she may think back on it with some small degree of regret for how things "might have been" -- but mostly she'll just think of it as another fleeting scene in her life.
As for you -- I dare say you may want to spend some serious time thinking on yourself, figuring out who you are, WHY you are the person you've become; figure out the good and bad, try to fix the bad and amplify the good, etc, etc.
You can't please some people but you're sure as heck in a position to please yourself, and there's nothing selfish about that unless you MAKE it something selfish.
I was given a golden opportunity because if I'd married that woman she would have done this anyway, somewhere down the line. This way she's with someone she wanted rather than resenting me, and I've gone on to take several good looks at myself. I've taken several long, hard looks at women and men, our similarities and our differences. I don't know it all but if I could go back in time to that man 15 years ago and talk to him I might save him some heartache and could certainly save him a LOT of money!
You've been given that same opportunity -- except for the time travel, of course.
Use it if you don't want the next one to be the same.
Your situation has a lot of similarities to mine, so I can see how you have gotten so wise on this topic. 2 weeks before the wedding, wow, just wow. Your story says so much because you had even been making efforts to keep the spark alive, to make her feel special, loved, and still, she left anyway. It's a good cautionary tale for those of us wrestling with the "why did this happen" aspect of things. Sometimes, they just lose that love for you. My ex in the end first told me "You didn't do anything wrong" but as the affair was brought to light, she made statements that we had not been doing enough together, she wasn't getting enough attention, and the spark just went out. She was hoping it would come back but said it was just lost. Tough to hear, for sure, because much like you, even despite her own failings, I loved her unconditionally and would have done anything for her.
We did so much together while the affair was going on (I didn't know at the time) to try and get that spark back...Started spending more time with her, more attention, all that, but it was already too late. Like you said she had checked out of the relationship long before. The conversations with the OM were continuing and I am sure the attraction there was growing stronger, I was competing with someone else and didn't even know it. There was absolutely NOTHING I could do at that point. She began to even start trying to convince me we needed to break up, saying things like "Why do you love me? I'm worthless, I don't do anything for you" etc...It was just as if she had no desire to be here. She was still conflicted all the way up to the day she called off the wedding, that day had asked me if I would consider relationship counseling (I assumed the wedding being off meant relationship was off too), but then that same night she was off to see the OM. At that point I had to make it stop.
You are right - In the end, everything was an argument. I couldn't do anything right even though I was doing so much. I was realizing the mistakes, and trying to course correct, but every little thing was seen as an attack on her. Like you said, it was like even kindness made her want to get away from me. That is the allure of the other person, I guess. Anything they can do to justify that this new person is better for them than you are.
What I am really trying to explore is the cheating aspect. Why this has happened to me in the past, that the girls I end up with CHEAT...They can't just break it off. They lie, they cheat...THEN it ends. I can take accountability for my failings in relationships, I am very guilty of falling into patterns when the honeymoon phase is over. Taking her for granted, not spending enough time with her, etc. I realize all this and yes, all part of my accountability. But why do they not just leave? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I can understand a break up. Having to just call it quits. But they don't even talk to me about it, just silent resentment building, to CHEATING...Not resentment and then leaving. That's where I'm trying to figure out the mistake in my choices. I think it's so much easier to live with being dumped than cheated.
There are positives as you say, in that this is an opportunity to discover more about yourself, and also a fresh start. I really would rather not start over. She and I built a life and a relationship and losing that is difficult. We had our differences but a lot of similarities too. It will be hard to find that again, without a doubt. Did you date? Did you find someone? Do you have a happy ending?
I appreciate all this detail as you help me put it into perspective. The hardest part has been looking at myself and taking responsibility for what caused the relationship to spiral down, because I don't have to look hard to realize that. What I still am having trouble with is why not just a breakup, but instead a betrayal. But that I may never really figure out.
The first part is the only one that really matters, however, and that is:
What is it about YOU that chooses this kind of woman?
Is it bad choices in simply choosing the kind of women you're attracted to? Are there subtle signs which you're reading one way when they're really indicative of something else? Is it something in the way you act and conduct yourself while you're WITH them, such as being a doormat, being overly accomodating to them so that for all you do for them they ultimately despise you for your perceived weakness?
I can't answer those questions because I don't know you in real life, can't really read you quite so accurately from just posts. However, much earlier in the thread I DID read a certain doormat-tendency on your part and you fessed up to it -- so I'd say that's a good place to start.
As for the second part, about why women cheat rather than leave...
Men and women both cheat. Men who cheat will feign ignorance and dance around the whole thing as best they can, doing their best to avoid outright lies (despite that in order to DO the cheating they're forced to resort to outright lies) -- but men who cheat don't do it because they want to leave, they do it for excitement on the side. That excitement is only as long in duration as the sex itself and perhaps the afterglow, but as soon as he's orgasmed his FIRST thought is how do I get away with this? Granted, that should have happened before sexual congress and should have been WHY would I get away with this, but it wasn't.
I'm NOT saying it doesn't matter or doesn't count because it's difficult to have long-term sex with anyone and not develop feelings for them, but for men you've heard the old "It didn't mean anything"? Well, in a way it really IS just sex, and men can separate sex and emotion in a way women... I won't say "can't" but I will say "generally don't".
Men don't cheat with the intent of leaving, although that sometimes is the result -- but only after they've been in it long enough to develop feelings for the woman OR they've distanced themselves enough from their wives/SO's to finally make that emotional break and technical leap.
Women, on the other hand, cheat because another man is exciting. He is, specifically, NOT YOU. They're not cheating because they have feelings for him (at least, not at first); rather, they're cheating because they don't have feelings for you anymore. They're looking to rekindle something that's gone out for them. You've become boring and you don't make them feel special anymore; this new guy isn't boring, and he DOES make them feel special.
(Don't ask me what it takes to make a woman feel special; women will all agree on certain things like "keeping the spark alive" and other vagaries, but in the end those are NOT enough if she's decided she no longer feels special.)
Half the time it's true and half the time it's not, but either way women WILL blame you for that thing which they feel has gone out. It's an integral difference between men and women: Men make excuses, women place blame. Men don't want to be the guilty party any more than women, but ultimately, sometimes months or years later, men will come to grips with self-blame in those quiet moments during the small hours. Women prefer not to do this; so long as it was all your fault her actions are justified in some measure.
When women cheat, they're doing it because another man/woman has awakened a sense of thrill inside them they've missed since the salad days of the relationship they're actually in. They see a handsome man, he makes eyes for them and suddenly they're thinking my man doesn't look at me that way anymore; it's been so long since anyone made me feel special.
Part of this is because of the way men and women conduct themselves in relationships. They're both in it for the thrill initially, but men settle into a sense of complacency after a while. They view the other partner as reliable and steady and stop feeling like they're supposed to have to fight for her (not for her as in accomplishing things for her sake, but for her as in vying with others for her attention). This is inherently untrue, as can be seen through the style of female cheaters.
Women, on the other hand, wonder why the courtship ever stops.
Men cheat and feel guilty, go home and won't touch their wives sexually BUT will baby and coddle them to assuage the guilt.
Women cheat and feel guilty, go home and shower and shower and shower, and then have as much sex with their man as possible to try and "sex the sin away".
There are simply differences -- not dyed-in-the-wool differences, but good rules of thumb to observe.
Women won't leave a man (by way of cheating) until they've GOT a safety net, until they're certain someone will catch them when they jump. They are NOT about risk to themselves. If you want to risk yourself that's fine (so long as you don't leave them in the lurch) but they are NOT going to risk themselves and their security.
Remember, what I'm talking about here are CHEATERS, not women who leave a man because a situation has become intolerable -- although even then (and there's nothing wrong with it) they'll make sure they're covered before they make a move. Men are more likely to simply strike out than women.
So don't waste time trying to figure out why women cheat rather than simply leave when they're in a relationship they no longer care for. A great deal of the time they were simply dissatisfied without even knowing why until another guy made them feel "special". After that it was justification.
No, instead spend time figuring out YOU, what makes you tick, what kind of women you're drawn to and why, WHERE those kinds of women are, how and why you make your decisions about dating and relationships, etc.
The more YOU accomplish for yourself, the happier YOU are WITH yourself, the better off you'll be in so many ways, and the more attractive you'll be to women -- which will open up a different playing field for you entirely.
Little things will come into play, too -- little things about women.
HINTS:
YOU: "Where do you want to go for dinner?"
HER: "I don't know, where do you want to go?"...?
Okay, you asked BECAUSE you don't really care and BECAUSE you're trying to be accomodating, but women generally don't care to make decisions about stuff like that when they don't care either.
What they want is for YOU to make up their mind for them. If they DO know what they want, they'll TELL YOU specifically. However, men don't know this, so we're thinking Wow, I asked a question and got a question back! So we start saying "How about...?", all the while inserting alternatives.
If they hear one they like, they'll pick it; if they don't, they'll get kind of frumpy and irritated because you're not being a man about it and making a decision! They don't think about it this way, not on any conscious level, but they're trying to be accomodating too, in a weird sort of way, by shooting down all the things you throw out there. It's their way of saying Anything is fine, I really don't care, just make a decision!
Instead of saying "How about...?" instead say "Hey, I'm in the mood for [insert food here], let's go to [restaurant]!" If they really don't want to they'll say; if they really don't care they'll go along with it, even if they're kind of so-so with the decision. The point isn't where dinner takes place, it's someone (you) making a decision.
Eventually they'll play the "We always go where you want for dinner" game, but when this happens point out to them FIRMLY that you ALWAYS ask them first and offer them options which they're free to speak up for. DO NOT waver on this or back down.
It's such a tiny thing that helps spell out the difference between a man and a wimp in her eyes.
All just a part of walking the minefield.
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