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It's pretty obvious that people aren't capable of handling issues on their own though--look at the popularity of these kind of forums. People flock here by the thousands to get advice on what to do in situations. It's basically free (bad) therapy. They're seeking justification or affirmation of their beliefs. They're asking for advice on how to handle a disagreement. I think these people would be better off talking to a trained intermediary than asking the internet what to do if they wake up and don't find their spouse attractive today.
A lot of people come here simply for fun. While I enjoy the fresh and intelligent perspective of certain posters, I certainly don't see this forum as a source of advice. I don't think I'm exceptional in this. Moreover, seeking justification or affirmation isn't "seeking advice", but that's a discussion for another day. It's not "pretty obvious" to me that people aren't capable of handling their own lives without having "specialists" monitor them -- but beliefs to the contrary only confirm to me the growing helplessness of the American society, ever more willing to give up one aspect after another of its life to "professionals" who know better because they've been "trained". That kind of a mindset leads to an erosion of liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
You don't have to be good at implementing something to know what works. Are math teachers the best mathematicians? Not usually. Do dog trainers have perfectly well behaved dogs? Not always. They know how to do it, they just might not be the best at implementing it.
Math teachers are better mathematicians than your average Joe Blow. Dog trainers are usually better with dogs than people who aren't dog trainers. I'm not saying marriage counselors should have a ZERO divorce rate -- but if their schtick worked, they certainly would have lower divorce rates than the national average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
Also, there may not be any stats out there, but if there were, I would actually expect that marriages who go to therapy fare worse than those that don't--because marriages that don't need therapy rarely ever go.
Well, this is the clincher: Who determines what marriages need therapy and what marriages don't? How does one determine that? Note that this is a legitimate question even if the spouses determine that. According to the title of the thread, and as far as I can tell from your posts, there are people who believe that even good marriages need therapy, either "just in case" or to chase the moving goal of absolute perfection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
Not in a clinical setting, but absolutely the marriages I look up to have had mentors and advisers. My grandparents have had a strong relationship with their pastors for 50+ years, and they went to him for advice and reassurance when they needed it. It wasn't a clinical setting, but it's the same idea. Today, many people don't have that strong example in their life, so why not use a counselor or couples retreat type thing instead?
I really think this is comparing apples and oranges. Seeking advice occasionally from a friend, or looking up to people as examples can in no way be compared to marital counseling by a "specialist" in a clinical setting. The latter situation, whether you like it or not, has the effect of medicalizing a marriage. Although, I do acknowledge that my opinion in this matter is inspired to a great extent by a life-long aversion to emotional exhibitionism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
While interesting, I don't think this has anything to do with the original topic. I read it as "Would you actively seek tools to strengthen your marriage before you need help?" Not, "Do you think that a good marriage needs to be psychologically documented and nit-picked apart". I see absolutely nothing wrong with learning how to have rational discussions before you have an irrational one. I would not go to a counselor to bemoan my husband's faults.
Sure it's relevant. I simply mentioned that marriage counseling has a downside and explained the basis for my comment. I do think there is a medicalization issue here, and I do believe it's dangerous -- not necessarily to individual couples and not in the immediate sense, but to our society at large and for future generations. If the question in the OP were to be strictly answered, we would have a string of posts confined to "yes", "no" and "maybe". Now, what would be the fun in that?
There is something that you mentioned, though, that I want to take up specifically, and that is that therapy is supposedly necessary to learn how to have a rational discussion before you have an irrational one. Several things here. First, knowing how to have a rational discussion will not necessarily prevent irrational behavior. Second, anyone who is capable of rational thought can have a rational discussion without being trained by a therapist. It's an educational and cultural issue, not a therapeutic one. We have a touchy-feely society, where rational thought is often pooh-poohed and "feelings" are held to be the Holy Grail of human existence. I don't think that's something that can be fixed with marriage counseling.
A lot of people come here simply for fun. While I enjoy the fresh and intelligent perspective of certain posters, I certainly don't see this forum as a source of advice. I don't think I'm exceptional in this. Moreover, seeking justification or affirmation isn't "seeking advice", but that's a discussion for another day. It's not "pretty obvious" to me that people aren't capable of handling their own lives without having "specialists" monitor them -- but beliefs to the contrary only confirm to me the growing helplessness of the American society, ever more willing to give up one aspect after another of its life to "professionals" who know better because they've been "trained". That kind of a mindset leads to an erosion of liberty.
Math teachers are better mathematicians than your average Joe Blow. Dog trainers are usually better with dogs than people who aren't dog trainers. I'm not saying marriage counselors should have a ZERO divorce rate -- but if their schtick worked, they certainly would have lower divorce rates than the national average.
Well, this is the clincher: Who determines what marriages need therapy and what marriages don't? How does one determine that? Note that this is a legitimate question even if the spouses determine that. According to the title of the thread, and as far as I can tell from your posts, there are people who believe that even good marriages need therapy, either "just in case" or to chase the moving goal of absolute perfection.
I really think this is comparing apples and oranges. Seeking advice occasionally from a friend, or looking up to people as examples can in no way be compared to marital counseling by a "specialist" in a clinical setting. The latter situation, whether you like it or not, has the effect of medicalizing a marriage. Although, I do acknowledge that my opinion in this matter is inspired to a great extent by a life-long aversion to emotional exhibitionism.
Sure it's relevant. I simply mentioned that marriage counseling has a downside and explained the basis for my comment. I do think there is a medicalization issue here, and I do believe it's dangerous -- not necessarily to individual couples and not in the immediate sense, but to our society at large and for future generations. If the question in the OP were to be strictly answered, we would have a string of posts confined to "yes", "no" and "maybe". Now, what would be the fun in that?
There is something that you mentioned, though, that I want to take up specifically, and that is that therapy is supposedly necessary to learn how to have a rational discussion before you have an irrational one. Several things here. First, knowing how to have a rational discussion will not necessarily prevent irrational behavior. Second, anyone who is capable of rational thought can have a rational discussion without being trained by a therapist. It's an educational and cultural issue, not a therapeutic one. We have a touchy-feely society, where rational thought is often pooh-poohed and "feelings" are held to be the Holy Grail of human existence. I don't think that's something that can be fixed with marriage counseling.
1) You don't? Really? Then why are there subjects like "So I hooked up with a teacher...what should I do?", "How do I get over my husband hiding porn?" and "What do you do about a SO who does nothing?" Those seem like people who want help/advice.
2) Teachers are good teachers. They have good command of the subject matter, yes--but that doesn't mean they're necessarily the best at implementing it in their own lives. My pastor is not married, but I still think he has wonderful marriage advice to share with me, having seen hundreds of couples over the years. Is he a bad person to counsel me, since he's never been married?
3) Not "necessary". I think I'm a pretty good discuss-er, and I've never had formal training in it. For some people though, it could be a benefit. Everyone gets to decide on their own, it's not mandated!
The basic premise is, if someone's going to offer me tools to use, I'm going to take them up on it if I think I'm going to get anything out of it. Heck--I'm the most frugal person in the world, and I've still attended financial planning seminars. And learned a few things too My marriage is a million times more important to me than my bank account, so I'm going to keep on studying it. If you (general you) don't think you'll get anything out of it and don't want to go--don't! We're perfectly happy in our marriage, and if both parties are perfectly happy in their marriage, then they should do whatever they want.
As a married missionary, I've counseled many married couples over the years, but no amount of counseling will work unless both parties are equally and totally committed to their marriage, or more specifically, to each other, and that's what I tell them. Sometimes it takes six months for the message to 'reach' them, and sometimes it takes six weeks, but sometimes in one or both of them it doesn't take at all. You asked.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
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I don't know about formal counseling, but I think married couples should practice the biblical concept of seeking wisdom. What I mean is to try to get a lot of perspective from older couples and others who will look at your marriage objectively.
I think people should be educated about relationship skills and communication well before they get into one. As for counselling ... If there are no problems and things are going well, you'll probably find you have some you didn't know about - do you really want to know? If you have moderate problems, it may help and make things better if both parties do want to save the marriage. However, if the problems are more severe, the best counselling can accomplish in the vast majority of cases is a more controlled and sometimes less destructive crash and burn process. IMO, of course.
Have you been to a marriage counselor and would you consider going to one if your marriage was basically good?
No, I have a distrust of using counselors/psychologists when there are no problems. They are paid to find things to fix, maybe even if none exist. They are focused on identifying a quantifiable and billable problem. But every person, couple has issues that make them unique. No one is perfect. And imperfect can be very, very good.
[quote=Tough Questions;13986045]I knew someone once who was a marriage counselor and he told me that by the time the couple went to him the marriage was already in such bad shape that his job was almost impossible. The marriage counselor would have preferred that the couples would have come to him when their marriage was still basically strong but needed some fine tuning.
Have you been to a marriage counselor and would you consider going to one if your marriage was basically good? Or would you wait until there was serious problems?[/quote]
If the people need marriage counseling post marriage, they are already in trouble and likely is a lost cause anyways. People that cheat always want to attempt marriage counseling to reconcile and fix their problem when they should've thought about that before cheating in the first place. It's nothing but a 'get out of jail free' card and a joke.
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My marriage is a million times more important to me than my bank account, so I'm going to keep on studying it. If you (general you) don't think you'll get anything out of it and don't want to go--don't! We're perfectly happy in our marriage, and if both parties are perfectly happy in their marriage, then they should do whatever they want.
Nope, I wouldn't, but then...
