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So, I have been giving this a lot of thought... I know that the atheists/agnostic/non-religious and the religious are never going to see eye to eye - I understand that. I know that for many, there is also going to be a lot of animosity towards the other side simply because of their beliefs. I know this is probably going to just end up in another "You're stupid." "No, you're stupid." thread - but I just thought I would put some thoughts out there.
I understand that religious people get very upset when agnostics/atheists say things like "fairy tales, book of lies, etc." You feel that it is disrespectful. Your God and your bible/koran/torah/etc. are the center of your life. To insult them is of the highest order of insult to you. I get that.
And I understand that agnostics/atheists get upset when religious people try to bolster their opinion with passages from the bible, or saying that non-religious people believe in "nothing" and how can you believe in a negative. Most, if not all, non-believers actually believe in something - it just may not be God. It may be nature, science, humanity, self - it just isn't God.
These things shoot straight to the heart (or brain or wherever) for most of us. We are very passionate about it and because of that - these conversations tend to get dirty real fast.
Maybe, if the religious people - I'm going to single out the Christians just for this particular point, not to offend but to make a point - could understand that using bible passages to back up their arguments doesn't really mean that much to people who don't believe in the bible. I'm one of the people that doesn't really believe in the bible. I'm not saying nobody should - I just don't. My "bible" is "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran. However, if I quoted passages out of it to make a point - it probably wouldn't mean anything to anyone else but me. I'm not saying this to disrespect the bible - I'm just saying that it's probably going to fall on deaf ears. Although you may take everything in it as fact, it's not going to mean a whole lot to people that don't.
And maybe if the non-religious people tried to understand that even though the ideas of God and the bible/other religous texts don't mean much to them - it means the whole world to other people. Calling God and the bible/etc. names isn't really going to help get your point across either - it's just going to offend people. And when people are offended, they fight back - they don't listen. It's hard to understand how sacred a book can be to some people when it isn't to you - but that doesn't change the fact that it is nonetheless sacred to some.
I know that there are people on BOTH sides of the fence that aren't going to be happy unless they convert everyone else to their point of view - but I know that that is an impossible task. I know that there are people on BOTH sides that feel it is their duty to "save" the others - but people don't change their minds because of threats, insults, etc.
Do you think that we will all ever be able to tolerate others with different beliefs? Sadly, I don't really think so. However, I think we can ALL try to be a little bit more understanding.
Let the mud slinging begin!
So, I have been giving this a lot of thought... I know that the atheists/agnostic/non-religious and the religious are never going to see eye to eye - I understand that. I know that for many, there is also going to be a lot of animosity towards the other side simply because of their beliefs. I know this is probably going to just end up in another "You're stupid." "No, you're stupid." thread - but I just thought I would put some thoughts out there.
I understand that religious people get very upset when agnostics/atheists say things like "fairy tales, book of lies, etc." You feel that it is disrespectful. Your God and your bible/koran/torah/etc. are the center of your life. To insult them is of the highest order of insult to you. I get that.
And I understand that agnostics/atheists get upset when religious people try to bolster their opinion with passages from the bible, or saying that non-religious people believe in "nothing" and how can you believe in a negative. Most, if not all, non-believers actually believe in something - it just may not be God. It may be nature, science, humanity, self - it just isn't God.
These things shoot straight to the heart (or brain or wherever) for most of us. We are very passionate about it and because of that - these conversations tend to get dirty real fast.
Maybe, if the religious people - I'm going to single out the Christians just for this particular point, not to offend but to make a point - could understand that using bible passages to back up their arguments doesn't really mean that much to people who don't believe in the bible. I'm one of the people that doesn't really believe in the bible. I'm not saying nobody should - I just don't. My "bible" is "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran. However, if I quoted passages out of it to make a point - it probably wouldn't mean anything to anyone else but me. I'm not saying this to disrespect the bible - I'm just saying that it's probably going to fall on deaf ears. Although you may take everything in it as fact, it's not going to mean a whole lot to people that don't.
And maybe if the non-religious people tried to understand that even though the ideas of God and the bible/other religous texts don't mean much to them - it means the whole world to other people. Calling God and the bible/etc. names isn't really going to help get your point across either - it's just going to offend people. And when people are offended, they fight back - they don't listen. It's hard to understand how sacred a book can be to some people when it isn't to you - but that doesn't change the fact that it is nonetheless sacred to some.
I know that there are people on BOTH sides of the fence that aren't going to be happy unless they convert everyone else to their point of view - but I know that that is an impossible task. I know that there are people on BOTH sides that feel it is their duty to "save" the others - but people don't change their minds because of threats, insults, etc.
Do you think that we will all ever be able to tolerate others with different beliefs? Sadly, I don't really think so. However, I think we can ALL try to be a little bit more understanding.
Let the mud slinging begin!
Great subject Dewdrop. I have posted on this EXTENSIVELY...even as recently as the last couple days.
I put together a rather lengthy post a while back...this is a modified repost:
Herein lies the problem---The norms of basic etiquette are at work here... and the Believers take exception with the Atheists because of the WAY they present their platform.
I'll explain this with an illustration of the following analogical conversational interactions:
Mr. X: I just got this Grass Eat lawnmower and I love it...I'm sure it will be a good and reliable unit.
Mr. Y: I had that brand of lawnmower...It's a piece of junk...it will be ok for a while but then will probably break down and go bad on you. Thinking the mower you just bought is going to be good and reliable is nothing more than a fairytale.
Mr. Y's response is a socially acceptable response considering the subject: a lawnmower...because it's not personal, Mr. X doesn't really "love" the lawnmower or have an emotional attachment to it...the focal entity of the subject is not something held dear to Mr. X.
Mr. Z: I just married this Italian girl and I love her...I'm sure she will be a good reliable wife.
Mr. Y: I had an Italian wife...she was a skank...she'll be ok for a while but then she will probably start cheating and go bad on you. Thinking that girl you just married is going to be a good wife is nothing more than a fairytale.
Mr. Y's response is NOT socially acceptable here...because, well, you get it.
Same with Believer vs Atheist.
The Believer telling the Atheist his/her "No God" platform is in error...as long as they don't criticize anything they DO believe...is socially acceptable because he/she is not denigrating anything in particular the Atheist loves and holds dear...MOF he/she is really not denigrating anything...since the Atheist doesn't believe in anything about a God.
OTOH, if the Atheist denigrates the belief in God, or scoffs at the belief in God as a "fairytale", it is socially UNacceptable because he/she is denigrating their beliefs, and something personal and dear to the Believer.
Telling someone that they lack logic and reason because they "believe" in something through "faith" is just outright rude. "Feelings", and other "affairs of the heart" can never be disputed for they are manifest of the intuition and perception of the person that has them. Just as you can't tell someone they lack logic and reason because they "love" or "hate" someone or something...on the basis that there is no empirical or direct objective basis for love or hate. That is understood by anyone and everyone. Validity of feelings and beliefs can't be questioned on the same basis as validity of data. To question a persons logical capacity, or ability to think reasonably, because of their "faith" and "beliefs", is a KNOWN social slight...in fact, it's considered one of the worst there is...and found to be completely unacceptable in most circles of polite company. So why do the Atheists persist...with, "Sky Daddy", parody gods like The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the most horrible of insults to various Deities, declarations of the Believers as "sheeple", and countless other slights?
Put your position out there...even why you think or believe the way you do...but don't label another's theological "feelings" and "beliefs" as indicative of their lack of ability to think logically and reasonably. And NEVER directly insult what a person considers SACRED...regardless of whether you think there is such a thing as "sacred" entities. Debate their existence...and why you think they don't exist...but never insult them.
I didn't make the "rules" of social correctness...I have just lived enough to know what they are.
Oh, and BTW, I admit to falling short of the standards myself on occasion.
We are very passionate about it and because of that - these conversations tend to get dirty real fast.
Please explain more precisely what you mean by "conversations tend to get dirty."
These forums are policed - quite vigorously and over-officiously IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
I'm going to single out the Christians just for this particular point, not to offend but to make a point - could understand that using bible passages to back up their arguments doesn't really mean that much to people who don't believe in the bible.
I invite you to read all my past discussions (term applied loosely here) and note that in every single case the Bible topic was first introduced by the person with whom I was having the discussion - not by me.
My sense is that you are somehow bothered when folks with differing views get a little passionate from time to time and express as much in this forum.
I'll explain this with an illustration of the following analogical conversational interactions:
How about these analogies MrG....
Socially Acceptable.
Mr X: I follow Jesus.
Mr Y: I don't.
Mr X. That's cool. I still love ya man! Peace!!
Compare the above analogy with the one below which, I think it's safe to say, has been the experience of many, if not most atheist.
Socially Unacceptable. Mr X: I follow Jesus.
Mr Y: I don't.
Mr X: Well you need to.
Mr Y: Why?
Mr X: Because Jesus loves ya' more than you imagine so you need to start worshipping him NOW...otherwise he'll send ya' to suffer and burn in everlasting torment...your children too if they don't believe! Why don't ya' believe?
Mr Y: I'm atheist.
Mr: X: . So you don't have any morals huh....go out cheating on your wife every night huh? Stealing, raping everything woman you see. I guess your life is just a worthless mess isn't it? No direction. Teach your kids to dance nekid 'round a camp fire worshipping the Devil don't ya huh? You do doncha..ya know ya do?? Well don't say I didn't warn ya scum bag. When you and your wife, kids, cat, dog, parrot, even that little mouse that lives in the corner of your woodshed are all writhing and sizzling and frying in the flames of eternal torment, you're gonna remember and envy me 'cause I'm gonna be up there at the right hand of God, lookin' down and laughing at ya!!!!
What's that old saying... never discuss politics and religion in polite company. Well, this forum is for sharing and, frankly, if people can't take the heat, then maybe they should get out of the kitchen.
People's views on any religious matters will always bring about conflict, name calling, etc. because there are God's Truths and then there are man's. Now the non-believers, obviously, will dispute this... so I'll put it in a kinder and gentler way... religion is all about finding spiritual love... if it comes from our love of nature or science or poetry... then that is a good thing, too... whatever positive thing that will bring about harmony.
I share here the knowledge of our Heavenly Father, who some prefer to call God, because the love that He gives to me is far superior than any other love that I have ever known... and with this love comes peace, wisdom and understanding.
Sometimes the underlying emotion that drives people is fear... especially of the unknown... what's the purpose of life and why are we here... and more especially about our Heavenly Father... does He exist or not. Truth seekers will find the answers... those who aren't seeking will be exposed to all kinds of different philosophies... and, yes, Bible verses and website links and videos, etc... but, perhaps, maybe they will become seekers of truth in the end and they will find it.
So, I have been giving this a lot of thought... I know that the atheists/agnostic/non-religious and the religious are never going to see eye to eye - I understand that. I know that for many, there is also going to be a lot of animosity towards the other side simply because of their beliefs. I know this is probably going to just end up in another "You're stupid." "No, you're stupid." thread - but I just thought I would put some thoughts out there.
I understand that religious people get very upset when agnostics/atheists say things like "fairy tales, book of lies, etc." You feel that it is disrespectful. Your God and your bible/koran/torah/etc. are the center of your life. To insult them is of the highest order of insult to you. I get that.
And I understand that agnostics/atheists get upset when religious people try to bolster their opinion with passages from the bible, or saying that non-religious people believe in "nothing" and how can you believe in a negative. Most, if not all, non-believers actually believe in something - it just may not be God. It may be nature, science, humanity, self - it just isn't God.
These things shoot straight to the heart (or brain or wherever) for most of us. We are very passionate about it and because of that - these conversations tend to get dirty real fast.
Maybe, if the religious people - I'm going to single out the Christians just for this particular point, not to offend but to make a point - could understand that using bible passages to back up their arguments doesn't really mean that much to people who don't believe in the bible. I'm one of the people that doesn't really believe in the bible. I'm not saying nobody should - I just don't. My "bible" is "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran. However, if I quoted passages out of it to make a point - it probably wouldn't mean anything to anyone else but me. I'm not saying this to disrespect the bible - I'm just saying that it's probably going to fall on deaf ears. Although you may take everything in it as fact, it's not going to mean a whole lot to people that don't.
And maybe if the non-religious people tried to understand that even though the ideas of God and the bible/other religous texts don't mean much to them - it means the whole world to other people. Calling God and the bible/etc. names isn't really going to help get your point across either - it's just going to offend people. And when people are offended, they fight back - they don't listen. It's hard to understand how sacred a book can be to some people when it isn't to you - but that doesn't change the fact that it is nonetheless sacred to some.
I know that there are people on BOTH sides of the fence that aren't going to be happy unless they convert everyone else to their point of view - but I know that that is an impossible task. I know that there are people on BOTH sides that feel it is their duty to "save" the others - but people don't change their minds because of threats, insults, etc.
Do you think that we will all ever be able to tolerate others with different beliefs? Sadly, I don't really think so. However, I think we can ALL try to be a little bit more understanding.
Let the mud slinging begin!
there are people on this forum who respect most others beliefs or non beliefs such as myself---i think we should be kind and respectful towards one another no matter what they believe in(but i do have a problem respecting satanists or negativity mongers)
Herein lies the problem---The norms of basic etiquette are at work here... and the Believers take exception with the Atheists because of the WAY they present their platform.
Atheism is not a religion and is not a platform. Where you continue to get these ideas is elusive.
Quote:
I'll explain this with an illustration of the following analogical conversational interactions:
Mr. X: I just got this Grass Eat lawnmower and I love it...I'm sure it will be a good and reliable unit.
Mr. Y: I had that brand of lawnmower...It's a piece of junk...it will be ok for a while but then will probably break down and go bad on you. Thinking the mower you just bought is going to be good and reliable is nothing more than a fairytale.
Mr. Y's response is a socially acceptable response considering the subject: a lawnmower...because it's not personal, Mr. X doesn't really "love" the lawnmower or have an emotional attachment to it...the focal entity of the subject is not something held dear to Mr. X
An Idea.
Quote:
Mr. Z: I just married this Italian girl and I love her...I'm sure she will be a good reliable wife.
Mr. Y: I had an Italian wife...she was a skank...she'll be ok for a while but then she will probably start cheating and go bad on you. Thinking that girl you just married is going to be a good wife is nothing more than a fairytale.
Mr. Y's response is NOT socially acceptable here...because, well, you get it.
A sovereign person.
Quote:
Same with Believer vs Atheist.
The Believer telling the Atheist his/her "No God" platform is in error...as long as they don't criticize anything they DO believe...is socially acceptable because he/she is not denigrating anything in particular the Atheist loves and holds dear...MOF he/she is really not denigrating anything...since the Atheist doesn't believe in anything about a God.
OTOH, if the Atheist denigrates the belief in God, or scoffs at the belief in God as a "fairytale", it is socially UNacceptable because he/she is denigrating their beliefs, and something personal and dear to the Believer.
Your analogy doesn't work when you are comparing apples to car engines. An idea is not at all similar to a sovereign person. Theism, religion, and the belief structures surrounding religion--no matter how much you desire to internalize them--do not constitute sovereign people. Tell me you do understand this base difference.
Quote:
Telling someone that they lack logic and reason because they "believe" in something through "faith" is just outright rude.
Would you like to go through the definitions again?
Quote:
"Feelings", and other "affairs of the heart" can never be disputed for they are manifest of the intuition and perception of the person that has them.
Yet society at large exhibits them all the same. How would you ever possibly study something objectively that is experienced by the entire population?
Quote:
Just as you can't tell someone they lack logic and reason because they "love" or "hate" someone or something...on the basis that there is no empirical or direct objective basis for love or hate.
That is understood by anyone and everyone. Validity of feelings and beliefs can't be questioned on the same basis as validity of data.
It would be because emotions do not lead to rational conclusions--which is why we refrain from using emotions to make decisions. Hence, your emotional outbreaks to religious criticism make you a poor judge of what does and does not constitute acceptable criticism.
Quote:
To question a persons logical capacity, or ability to think reasonably, because of their "faith" and "beliefs", is a KNOWN social slight...in fact, it's considered one of the worst there is...and found to be completely unacceptable in most circles of polite company. So why do the Atheists persist...with, "Sky Daddy", parody gods like The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the most horrible of insults to various Deities, declarations of the Believers as "sheeple", and countless other slights?
Moderator cut: personal attack
Quote:
Put your position out there...even why you think or believe the way you do...but don't label another's theological "feelings" and "beliefs" as indicative of their lack of ability to think logically and reasonably. And NEVER directly insult what a person considers SACRED...regardless of whether you think there is such a thing as "sacred" entities. Debate their existence...and why you think they don't exist...but never insult them.
I didn't make the "rules" of social correctness...I have just lived enough to know what they are.
Oh, and BTW, I admit to falling short of the standards myself on occasion.
Moderator cut: attackThe things you fall short on Gldn would make a long list.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-12-2010 at 05:59 PM..
Reason: attack the idea NOT the person
No offense, but you all have missed the point of the thread and the point I was trying to make.
GldnRule, Rafius, Konraden - I have respect for all of you. However, this thread isn't about airing your grievances - it is about trying to understand the other side of things! I know it's hard - but I don't think it's impossible!
tigetmax24 and socalangel2009 - While I thank you so much for your kind and respectful words (deal with it, get out of the kitchen, and most of all - insinuating that maybe we will all be redeemed if we become "truth seekers" and believe the same exact things that you do) - you have missed the point as well. Or maybe we just haven't been reading the same threads. I highly value a heated debate - however, most of the "debates" on the main forum just turn into name calling. A lot of the threads have been closed. I love reading all the threads - I just stop finding anything of value in name calling. But when we stop listening to each other - we stop understanding each other - we stop accomplishing ANYTHING and all we do is stick our fingers in our ears and say "YOU'RE STUPID! YOU'RE AN IDIOT!" - then it's not really a debate. If you haven't noticed this happening - then you aren't reading a lot of the threads.
Now, I think it is a different case in the specific forums - the Atheist/Agnostic forum and the Christian forum. I think there - you can say whatever you want because it is supposed to be mainly for people that are on the same sides of things. If Christians want to go on to an Atheist/Agnostic thread - they should be prepared to take whatever is coming to them! And vice versa. However, on this forum - wouldn't it be nice if we could try to understand where other people are coming from.
I am a people watcher/listener and I find that is very helpful in enabling me to respect their beliefs/unbeliefs..
I have also learned that you first have to respect in order to be respected..
An opinion is a persons personal perception of an event, an interpretation of a book or even a movie one has seen and I have learned from other peoples opinions, not because they yelled them or threatened me if I did not agree with them and accept their opinion as truth, but because they simply shared them without any presumption that they were changing, converting or leading me into their way of thinking or living..
For myself it is all about mutual respect
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. So you don't have any morals huh....go out cheating on your wife every night huh? Stealing, raping everything woman you see. I guess your life is just a worthless mess isn't it? No direction. Teach your kids to dance nekid 'round a camp fire worshipping the Devil don't ya huh? You do doncha..ya know ya do?? Well don't say I didn't warn ya scum bag. When you and your wife, kids, cat, dog, parrot, even that little mouse that lives in the corner of your woodshed are all writhing and sizzling and frying in the flames of eternal torment, you're gonna remember and envy me 'cause I'm gonna be up there at the right hand of God, lookin' down and laughing at ya!!!!
