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I think atheists can be moral, but the urge to overcompensate and claim moral superiority all the time is both obnoxious and laughable.
I think the amount of times Christians claim moral superiority over atheists brought up this post. The fact that Christians think they are moral because they abide by whats written in some book is laughable. Especially by the fact that if you ask 100 different Christians there interpretation of the Bible is you'll get 100 different answers. That my friend is laughable. The fact that premarital sex is not accepted before marriage, condoms are a sin, etc. but millions of Christians go ahead and do it anyways is laughable.
I always wondered if 2 Christians had premarital sex and then felt bad about it afterwards and went to the church the next day to confess...I just find that hysterical and wish I were a fly on the wall to hear that conversation.
Just wanted to mention that I believe what one of the other posters stated above. Every human being, religious or non-religious has the capacity to do good or bad in this world.
I think atheists can be moral, but the knee-jerk response of "Your morality isn't better than mine, mine's better than yours" I'm not sure helps anything. I mean sure I think my moral ideals are better than atheists, but at some point it's wise to realize discussions like that are never (or very rarely at least) going to accomplish much. It just inspires defensiveness as Christian criticism of atheist morality does.
In specific indicating "Christian morality is about fear, atheist morality is so wonderful" is obviously glib and simplistic. There are many kinds of Christians and their motivation, or what their faith motivates them to, varies. Same with atheists. I would wager at least some atheists have a morality that is motivated by fear. Fear of losing friends, fear of societal disapproval, fear of illness, fear of imprisonment, etc. If this is never the case of atheists then they are truly amazing people, and although some could claim "yes we atheist are amazing and wonderful" I don't find any reason to believe that such delusions of collective grandeur.
I think atheists can be moral, but the urge to overcompensate and claim moral superiority all the time is both obnoxious and laughable.
It is never brought up except in response to the stupidity of some self-righteous phony christian that states empirically that Atheists cannot be moral people, simply because they are Atheists. Christianity teaches this nonsense, what a wonderful thing christianity is to teach hatred, based solely on stupidity.
If you saw the same nonsense repeated time and time again about christians, you to would become defensive and be getting in someone's face about it.
At the risk of getting everyone mad at me - I wanted to put in my 2 cents!
Personally, I don't think religion or lack of religion makes a person moral or immoral. I think that most people in today's society are going to be either moral or immoral (or somewhere in between the two) regardless of religion. Now, I would say that morals can be relative. For instance, I see nothing wrong at all with premarital sex - as long as you are safe about it physically and emotionally. To some very religious people - that might make me automatically immoral!
But back to my point - there are Christians that kill people or commit other heinous crimes - so obviously the threat of God's wrath did nothing to deter them. There are atheists that commit heinous crimes, too - so obviously the threat of jail did nothing to deter them. People that are going to commit heinous crimes are going to commit them regardless of the consequences - whether in this world or the next. I would say the opposite can be said as well. I'm not Christian - but I would never commit a heinous crime. It has nothing to do with jail or God - it's just not in me.
I think that a lot of atheists/agnostics get asked quite often how they are able to tell right from wrong with out God. I don't think that ALL religious people ask this question - but it does come up a lot on C-D. In my opinion, it is fairly ridiculous. However, I think if you are raised to be very religious and have never been exposed to anyone of different faiths or of no faith - you probably just don't understand anyone different from yourself.
Since I have always been atheist/agnostic/whatever you want to call it - and since my parents had beliefs somewhat similar to my own - I've never felt the need to defend myself anywhere except maybe on C-D. I'm not saying I've never had people tell me I'm going to hell or say cruel things to me (whether subtle or not so subtle) because of my lack of faith - but I just felt that it was because of their ignorance and narrow mindedness. I can't really defend myself against people who are incapable of understanding - so I usually don't try. On C-D however, people are here to discuss things - so I think it is worth trying to explain things.
I think a lot of Atheists/Agnostics have "knee jerk" reactions because a lot of them used to be religious. I think a lot of them (from what I gather) have faced a lot of prejudice from friends, relatives, peers, because of their new belief system. I think people get tired of trying to explain that you can be "good with out God." I understand that.
Well, now that I've said what I wanted to say, I'm going to back out and rape and pillage the neighboring town! See ya!
I think atheists can be moral, but the knee-jerk response of "Your morality isn't better than mine, mine's better than yours" I'm not sure helps anything. I mean sure I think my moral ideals are better than atheists, but at some point it's wise to realize discussions like that are never (or very rarely at least) going to accomplish much. It just inspires defensiveness as Christian criticism of atheist morality does.
In specific indicating "Christian morality is about fear, atheist morality is so wonderful" is obviously glib and simplistic. There are many kinds of Christians and their motivation, or what their faith motivates them to, varies. Same with atheists. I would wager at least some atheists have a morality that is motivated by fear. Fear of losing friends, fear of societal disapproval, fear of illness, fear of imprisonment, etc. If this is never the case of atheists then they are truly amazing people, and although some could claim "yes we atheist are amazing and wonderful" I don't find any reason to believe that such delusions of collective grandeur.
What moral ideas of yours are "better" than us atheists?
At the risk of getting everyone mad at me - I wanted to put in my 2 cents!
Personally, I don't think religion or lack of religion makes a person moral or immoral.
What Dewdrop said!
I don't think any of us doubt that the majority of people are born and raised with some sort of moral barometer which directs our actions towards other people - regardless of what religion or non-religion group they may belong to. We have all seen people in our lives that are capable of the most hurtful acts and are just able to move along and not give it another thought. I NEVER assume that they are Atheists! My, if it were only that easy to label people!
As a Christian, within my religious group, we have a sacrament of penance which I have long struggled with and which I have had many discussions on with people of my faith. I have always truly believed that NO ONE is able to beat me up more than myself - and that no amount of Hail Mary's will wash away what I have done unless I completely feel the harm I have caused and am truly sorry for it - AND make my own atonement to myself and the person I have harmed.
So to sum up, I don't think Atheists have the market cornered in Personal Morality any better than another faith-based religion. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing. It is something internal and well-developed by the people that raised us and the circumstances of our surroundings. The ability to not judge others is truly a gift.
I have always truly believed that NO ONE is able to beat me up more than myself - and that no amount of Hail Mary's will wash away what I have done unless I completely feel the harm I have caused and am truly sorry for it - AND make my own atonement to myself and the person I have harmed.
If you knew the guilt that I carry in my little heathen head!!! I have kept myself up many a night, tossing and turning, because I have said something that might have upset someone! My husband thinks I'm crazy! And I've always been like this - as far back as I can remember! When I make a mistake - I am almost inconsolable! It's kind of ridiculous, honestly!
If you knew the guilt that I carry in my little heathen head!!! I have kept myself up many a night, tossing and turning, because I have said something that might have upset someone! My husband thinks I'm crazy! And I've always been like this - as far back as I can remember! When I make a mistake - I am almost inconsolable! It's kind of ridiculous, honestly!
I'm with ya, Sistah! Neither the Pope or a stern Jewish Mother could make me feel any guiltier when I know I've done or said something wrong and hurtful. The old adage of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" is one I try to pratice to lessen the bouts of guilt!
So to sum up, I don't think Atheists have the market cornered in Personal Morality any better than another faith-based religion.
"[A]nother faith-based religion"? Atheism isn't a "faith-based religion".
No one "has the market cornered" in morality. I do, however, think that an ethical Atheist practices a higher form of morality because he has no belief in an eventual supernatural reward, and likewise has no fear of an eternal punishment for behaving badly. Being "good for goodness' sake", you might say, simply because it's the right thing to do.
I think atheists can be moral, but the knee-jerk response of "Your morality isn't better than mine, mine's better than yours" I'm not sure helps anything. I mean sure I think my moral ideals are better than atheists, but at some point it's wise to realize discussions like that are never (or very rarely at least) going to accomplish much. It just inspires defensiveness as Christian criticism of atheist morality does.
In specific indicating "Christian morality is about fear, atheist morality is so wonderful" is obviously glib and simplistic. There are many kinds of Christians and their motivation, or what their faith motivates them to, varies. Same with atheists. I would wager at least some atheists have a morality that is motivated by fear. Fear of losing friends, fear of societal disapproval, fear of illness, fear of imprisonment, etc. If this is never the case of atheists then they are truly amazing people, and although some could claim "yes we atheist are amazing and wonderful" I don't find any reason to believe that such delusions of collective grandeur.
I actually agree with you on this, Thomas. It does get kind of old consistently seeing the same people cry about how they are being accused of immoral actions and/or that they can't have morality because they are Atheists. In fact, I think it's one thing to defend yourself in the midst of a thread where that may be insinuated and another thing altogether to create a thread on it as to almost "pick a fight" about it.
In defense of the OP, I will admit that it seems to be a very common strawman argument against we Atheists to those that have never debated religion beyond their own dinner table. There are a few instantaneous reactions from the ignorant religious upon first seeing or hearing that someone is an Atheist. One of them, of course, is how we find our morality. It does show a clear lack of any deep thought or referential thinking outside the box but it's also much more common to those who don't do anything at all to educate themselves outside their little window - even posting on a forum.
To be honest with you... I think your typical forum poster (Christian or Atheist) either knows better than to make the accusation or understands that Atheists do in fact have a sense of morality. Even the most rabidly fundamentalist and crazy have pretty much refrained from this argument after just a short time on the board. As far as the forum goes, I don't really think it's much of an issue and I think there are bigger and better fish to fry on here than the perpetual ebb and flow of "I do so have a morality! Here's a poll and a statistic to show it!"
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