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I don't have to judge. There is One who has dispensed divine transcendent law and, in the end, will judge all creatures with perfect justice. Anyone guilty of violating divine transcendent law already stands condemned. I may, on certain occasions, point out specific infractions. So what should be done? Should the messenger be shot?
Wrong. You ignore all other transcendent ideologies then claim yours is the most superior. You babble on and on about how transcendent law is necessary to judge something as right or wrong, but what you really mean is that the only way to judge right and wrong is to hold a belief in the bible god. This is just sanctimonial ignorance.
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A classic non sequitur I think. If it were possible for multiple transcendent beings to exist, all morality would be relative...relative to which transcendent being and which law.
You're making the assumption that yours is the one true transcendent being/ideology, but alas this is not true. You have no evidence that christianity has more viable truth than the transcendent being of nazism. It's just your personal biases.
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"Thou shalt not commit murder."
Now, for those holding to the concept that God and moral absolutes do not exist, how is the holocaust or anything else judged to be "wrong?"
You're the one whom can't judge the holocaust as being wrong. If objective morality only comes from a transcendent being, then it follows that all ideologies which hold a belief in a transcendent being hold equally valid moral systems and you can't judge that moral system as being wrong. Nazism and christianity both have a transcendent law, therefore their moral systems are equally valid.(by your reasoning) If we follow your logic, then you can't objectively say that the moral systems of nazism are inferior to those of christianity. It is irrational to claim that objective/absolute morality can only come from a transcendent, but then ignore all other transcendent ideologies and claim your moral system is more superior.
I don't think atheism.about is exactly a neutral source.
Still generally I'd agree Nazis were not atheists. However Christians are also right in that many/most of their leaders were either not Christian at all or were highly heterodox. Bormann, Hesse, Rosenberg, Hitler were all influenced by occult or Marcionite ideals. The Christianity Nazis desired was called "Positive Christianity", purged of all Judaic elements and in-line with Nazi racial notions. The only Christians in the US close to this is the "Christian Identity Movement." Nazi Christianity tended to reject the Old Testament, allow for euthanasia of the disabled, and believed Jews could not be saved even by Baptism. Most forms of Christianity would reject all these ideas.
Casting Hitler as a conventional Christian, or the Nazis as a Christian regime, is about as flagrantly dishonest as casting them as atheist. They used Christian denominations when it was in their interest, but they often grew bored with attempts to Nazify Christianity such as "The Protestant Reich Church."
However there is good reason to think Mussolini was atheist while Franco was the opposite in emphasizing his Catholic faith. The Nazi-sympathizing Ustashe of Croatia were strongly/emphatically Catholic nationalist. The Romanian "Iron Cross" was Romanian Orthodox. The Japanese imperialist/fascist were ostensibly State-Shinto, so neither Christian nor atheist. There's also been Hindu Fascist movements. It is true atheists who are totalitarian are usually Marxist-Leninist or Maoist and that most atheists or Christians are not totalitarians.
Haven't we been over this ground before? I suggest that we go ahead and agree to disagree. The true historical record is quite clear in that there is nothing to support the notion that Hitler was a Christian nor is there any historical evidence to link Nazi ideology with the Christian world view.
If people such as yourself choose to ignore truth - well, that would be your God given choice.
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Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
Wrong. You ignore all other transcendent ideologies then claim yours is the most superior. You babble on and on about how transcendent law is necessary to judge something as right or wrong, but what you really mean is that the only way to judge right and wrong is to hold a belief in the bible god. This is just sanctimonious ignorance.
Way off the mark and totally missing the point - purposely I suspect - because you have no logical reasoned counter argument.
For the purpose of making my point, it really doesn't matter which supposed "transcendent ideologies" one may prefer. The same reasoning applies in that transcendent law can only exist if there is a transcendent law giver. While I may totally disagree with Islam, their reason for believing in the existence of objective moral values makes perfect sense, given their belief in the existence of a transcendent law giver. On the other hand, atheism denies the existence of both the transcendent law and the transcendent law giver. So how can atheism provide any framework for a system of ethics and morality? You seem to be of the opinion that it can and so I ask the question: How?
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Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
You're making the assumption that yours is the one true transcendent being/ideology, but alas this is not true. You have no evidence that Christianity has more viable truth than the transcendent being of nazism. It's just your personal biases.
Could you please at least make some attempt at having a reasonable discussion instead of simply tossing out your own personal opinions?
Yes, I have personal biases. Do you? ...are you afraid to admit it?
Still, I do attempt to have rational and reasoned discussions in an attempt to understand those that disagree with me. In other words, I try to lay out my case instead of simply unloading my personal view points.
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Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
You're the one who can't judge the holocaust as being wrong. If objective morality only comes from a transcendent being, then it follows that all ideologies which hold a belief in a transcendent being hold equally valid moral systems and you can't judge that moral system as being wrong. Nazism and Christianity both have a transcendent law, therefore their moral systems are equally valid.(by your reasoning) If we follow your logic, then you can't objectively say that the moral systems of nazism are inferior to those of Christianity. It is irrational to claim that objective/absolute morality can only come from a transcendent, but then ignore all other transcendent ideologies and claim your moral system is more superior.
Let's assume that I decide tomorrow to go ahead and invent some new religious cult - one holding to the concept of a transcendent being. Would that new cult automatically become "valid" simply because I decide to attach some sort of transcendent being to it?
How can numerous and different ideologies all involving the inclusion of belief in a transcendent being all be considered sound, valid, reasoned, legitimate and well founded, all at the same time?
I don't think atheism.about is exactly a neutral source.
Still generally I'd agree Nazis were not atheists. However Christians are also right in that many/most of their leaders were either not Christian at all or were highly heterodox. Bormann, Hesse, Rosenberg, Hitler were all influenced by occult or Marcionite ideals. The Christianity Nazis desired was called "Positive Christianity", purged of all Judaic elements and in-line with Nazi racial notions. The only Christians in the US close to this is the "Christian Identity Movement." Nazi Christianity tended to reject the Old Testament, allow for euthanasia of the disabled, and believed Jews could not be saved even by Baptism. Most forms of Christianity would reject all these ideas.
Casting Hitler as a conventional Christian, or the Nazis as a Christian regime, is about as flagrantly dishonest as casting them as atheist. They used Christian denominations when it was in their interest, but they often grew bored with attempts to Nazify Christianity such as "The Protestant Reich Church."
However there is good reason to think Mussolini was atheist while Franco was the opposite in emphasizing his Catholic faith. The Nazi-sympathizing Ustashe of Croatia were strongly/emphatically Catholic nationalist. The Romanian "Iron Cross" was Romanian Orthodox. The Japanese imperialist/fascist were ostensibly State-Shinto, so neither Christian nor atheist. There's also been Hindu Fascist movements. It is true atheists who are totalitarian are usually Marxist-Leninist or Maoist and that most atheists or Christians are not totalitarians.
You're correct. Mussolini was an atheist and fascism, like communism, is an atheistic ideology. I didn't mean that nazism was necessarily a christian based ideology, just that it's based on a transcendent being. The problem with tigetmax24's argument is that he says a transcendent being is necessary to judge right and wrong. The problem with his claim is that, if a transcendent being is necessary, then he also can't judge the right and wrong of other moral systems based on a transcendent being.
Aren't you confusing political "ism's" with religious "ism's?" What sort of transcendent being do Nazi's believe in?
WELL......since you asked, To be a member of the American Nazi Party, or, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, one has to be a christian. The swastika is just another version of the christian cross. Yeah, so much for that "love thy neighbor" thingy.
Aren't you confusing political "ism's" with religious "ism's?" What sort of transcendent being do Nazi's believe in?
WELL......since you asked, To be a member of the American Nazi Party, or, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, one has to be a christian. The swastika is just another version of the christian cross. Yeah, so much for that "love thy neighbor" thingy.
I don't think that's correct on the American Nazi Party or at least I want you to provide backing for the statement.
In any event many Neo-Nazis and Neo-Nazi organizations are clearly not Christian. The "Creativity Movement" is/was reportedly atheistic deeming the "Creator/Creativity" as referring to white people as Creator or Creativity. Even if it's not atheistic I remember, when Matthew Hale was on TV, them being clear they weren't Christian. William Luther Pierce, know for the infamous "The Turner Diaries" and the white separatist "National Alliance", believed in something he called "Cosmotheism." David Lane of "The Order", and also in the KKK for awhile, was into Germanic paganism and rejected Christianity. So even the KKK may have dumped the idea you have to be Christian to join.
I don't see why the believers whom make this claim think that god is the only way to morality, happiness, selflessness and fulfillment.
Morality and selflessness are the path to knowing God, and true happiness and fulfillment are the rewards for making the quest. No one knows what they do not know.
God doesn't care whether you believe, or not. In the end, ALL roads lead to God, and you are on the path.
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