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These fallacies are in the same vein as deathbed conversion stories of famous non-believers, also spread by Christians and lacking in any facts. Stories such as those are nothing more than blatant lies, such as the Darwin conversion myth.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There is nothing new about it. It references a specific type of uncertain danger that was peculiar to foxholes. You are in an identified battle line target with your buddies. Mortars arc in the air and drop down without warning. It only takes one time to see one of your buddies blown apart without warning in the same kind of foxhole as you to reveal the entirety of your total helplessness. It tends to evoke desperation.
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Originally Posted by rmd2010
Those sound frightening to say the least. A heart attack could happen in the most pleasant of places so I am not sure if that counts. It sounds like you have never been in a life threatening situation where you had others around you who talked about faith and praying at that scary moment. I could be wrong.
You are, and you seem to have another agenda here! A Pascal's Wager kind of side-ways approach. Christians: always looking to hedge their bets; a sure sign of the philosophically timid.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That is the point . . . in a foxhole there is absolutely nothing you can do to enhance your survival.
You can pray for more ammo? A shield made out of "unobtanium", or "inpenetrabilium"?
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Originally Posted by sanspeur
...belief in god requires that one has to abandon reason and logic...I was unable to do that.
Lots of things exist beyond our knowledge...New discoveries are made almost daily, but gods, ghosts, holy or not, heaven and hell...I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by Oakback
I suspect even the atheist fire fighters figure why not hedge their bets
I suspect you may be wrong. I know atheist EMTs and firefighters. In order to be socially quiescent and non-confrontational, they often bow their heads so as not to upset the applecart. But there is a general movement, growing in intensity and participation, for non-theists to ignore those "Let is bow our heads!" invocations so beloved by the Sheeple leaders.
I recently watched (at our local Memorial Day proceedings) as most of the lemming throngs around me bowed their heads, and since I was an observer, I noticed one of the priests present was heads-up and "checking out" the crowd. When his gaze came to me, and I was clearly visible near the front, I smiled and winked at him. He was, obviously, less than pleased.
They always are, as their power is visibly eroded...
When I was twice charged by polar bears during my work in the Canadian Arctic, I was only thinking of how to cycle that danged near-frozen Remington 870... The last bear slide to a dead stop literally at my feet. Twice I was totally surprised and less than 2 or 3 seconds from being ripped apart, alive. I just did what needed to be done. And afterwards I did not thank God; seems I figured it out completely absent God, huh??
A polite and sincere suggestion, rmd2010: do NOT put Godly attributes or conclusions on anyone else but yourself. This tendency to try to think for others is a reflection of what you've allowed to happen to you in your life, rather than going out on various philosophical limbs to check reality out FOR YOURSELF.
I mean, after all, "What if you're wrong?"
Ricky Bobby on fire: Help me, Jesus! Help me, Jewish God! Help me, Allah! Help me, Tom Cruise! Tom Cruise, use your witchcraft to get the fire off me! Help me, Oprah Winfrey - Talladega Nights
Ya know the battlefield experience is different for everyone who has served. What gets one airman, soldier, marine or sailor through those situations is going to differ. Obviously, those who already believe will probably turn to their god. However, they may see their buddies getting killed and determine there is no god. The same for non-believers. Those who already don't believe probably won't at the end of the day, though some might turn to a god and continue believing if they survive.
To be honest, during a firefight you are not thinking about deities. You are thinking about killing your enemy, protecting your buddies and getting the hell out of there. That's about it. Reflection comes later.
Good post. But I'm not even sure that you are thinking, well maybe to some extent. From my own experience I believe that all those previous months of rigorous training kicks in and you're kind of on automatic pilot. After all, wasn't that the point of the training.
By the way, in the Marine Corps it's called a "fighting hole"
Good post. But I'm not even sure that you are thinking, well maybe to some extent. From my own experience I believe that all those previous months of rigorous training kicks in and you're kind of on automatic pilot. After all, wasn't that the point of the training.
By the way, in the Marine Corps it's called a "fighting hole"
True that. There's too much going on to do much thinking about anything else. Automatic pilot for sure. Being a retired zoomie, those are words I can relate to.
Well, when I was in the hospital with a nasty case of Sepsis I kindly asked the couple of people who were praying to 'get the F out of my hospital room'. They thought I was dying. I thought otherwise. I recovered.
So yes, I have been close to death and no, I didn't pray. And I was 14 years old
Think about all the godless commies who never cared for god. I doubt they will suddenly burst into a foxhole prayer despite what some non-heathens postulate.
[color=Navy]I suspect you may be wrong. I know atheist EMTs and firefighters. In order to be socially quiescent and non-confrontational, they often bow their heads so as not to upset the applecart. But there is a general movement, growing in intensity and participation, for non-theists to ignore those "Let is bow our heads!" invocations so beloved by the Sheeple leaders.
That is the case, but only to the point I sat or stood quietly, without bowing my head.
Our department has never had the position of chaplain, but I know neighboring departments have one.
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Originally Posted by rifleman
I recently watched (at our local Memorial Day proceedings) as most of the lemming throngs around me bowed their heads, and since I was an observer, I noticed one of the priests present was heads-up and "checking out" the crowd. When his gaze came to me, and I was clearly visible near the front, I smiled and winked at him. He was, obviously, less than pleased.
Well at least you didn't give a big ol' wave Might have been an option I chose depending on circumstances.
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Originally Posted by rifleman
A polite and sincere suggestion, rmd2010: do NOT put Godly attributes or conclusions on anyone else but yourself. This tendency to try to think for others is a reflection of what you've allowed to happen to you in your life, rather than going out on various philosophical limbs to check reality out FOR YOURSELF.
I mean, after all, "What if you're wrong?"
Yes, when some event is about to (or has ) caused a sudden stain in your tidy whities, the desperation to get you out of this predicament for an Atheist is not think like the person already deluded about some deity that could save them, in the same manner I didn't ask the toothfairy to get me out of a burning house when the way I came in was blocked by a partial collapse.
Atheists in Foxholes, Newsweek Periscope, 'There are no atheists in foxholes'- Beliefnet.com (http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Secular-Philosophies/Atheists-In-Foxholes.aspx - broken link)
In the past several years, atheists have organized letter-writing campaigns against Katie Couric, Tom Brokaw, Bob Schieffer (who issued a public apology) and other news anchors for repeating the "no athe ists in foxholes" cliché on TV. And on Veteran's Day 2005, several dozen atheist veterans paraded down the National Mall bearing American flags and signs reading "Atheist Veteran-We Shared Your Foxholes!"
Can't help it! I'm a black and white guy, a pragmatist and a realist. It's worked for me so far.
Understood (but - and it's a BIG but) the world is not black and white. There are a trillion trillion shades of all colors. So (to get a true picture) I need those who polarize to one extreme or the other and you need those who can discern the nuances. See what I mean? That IS pragmatic because your sweeping generalizations (ie: "all Christians are brain washed as children" or "are converted in prison" etc.) is NOT reality.
Some simply find a spiritual dimension resonating in the words of Jesus that transforms them. Even Gandhi said as much - and the world is better off for it.
That is the point . . . in a foxhole there is absolutely nothing you can do to enhance your survival.
Exactly! Praying is just another example of something that would not enhance your survival.
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Might have been an option I chose depending on circumstances.
