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Nah..not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but I've noticed an increase in internet trolls that self-identify as atheist in the past 5-10 years. I think many of them have some kind of smug moral self-righteous thought that they're better than anyone else because they don't have the guts to engage people in person.
Well, personally, I don't mind engaging people in person, but I'd rather do it when the other party is okay with it. If I'm sitting there and you tell me something I find ridiculous about history because you read it in the Bible (like the Arc for instance), then I will probably tell you it's ridiculous.
I've gone to church several times with friends and had very civil, consensual and enlightening discussions about evolution and free will among other things.
Well, personally, I don't mind engaging people in person, but I'd rather do it when the other party is okay with it. If I'm sitting there and you tell me something I find ridiculous about history because you read it in the Bible (like the Arc for instance), then I will probably tell you it's ridiculous.
I've gone to church several times with friends and had very civil, consensual and enlightening discussions about evolution and free will among other things.
Exactly. There are people who have welcomed me as a "non believer" and left it at that. I once went to a church when on vacation, where they started with "We welcome everyone believers and non believers alike"
I am willing to engage in a civil discussion about religious beliefs. My experience is that fundies are generally very uncivilized, and since they are of such shallow t=faith perhaps, cannot fathom the idea of their beliefs being challenged.
Either way, I hate it when people come to my door uninvited. That is why I have a NO SOLICITORS Sign on the door, held in place by an NRA Sticker.
Probably more common in a predominantly Catholic or cultural Christian environment than in the US Bible Belt.
My experiences are indeed limited mostly to Ireland, UK and Germany geographically. But the people I experienced it WITH have indeed come from many areas of the US, including some of the Bible Belt.
I am of course an anecdote of one, so one should take what I say under that light. But the experience I report has at least been strongly consistent.
I think many of them have some kind of smug moral self-righteous thought that they're better than anyone else because they don't have the guts to engage people in person.
I thought you'd finally figured out the whole 'irony' thing.
How about Kim Davis, a woman who was so self-righteous that she decided that she didn't have to obey the law -- because she's Christian, and thus 'above' the laws that we mere 'mortals' follow every day of our lives.
What about Roy Moore, who was so stubborn in his beliefs that he twice defied Federal law to install an illegal monument on Federal property because he felt that Christian morality should be more important than his obedience to the Constitution?
And you speak of athiests taking the 'smug, moral self-righteous' position that they're inherently superior to the rest of humanity?
Nah..not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but I've noticed an increase in internet trolls that self-identify as atheist in the past 5-10 years. I think many of them have some kind of smug moral self-righteous thought that they're better than anyone else because they don't have the guts to engage people in person.
And I've noticed an increase in the number of Christians who believe their worldview should be the only one allowed a voice -- and whenever a dissenting opinion is brought to the fore, we get an earful from certain types about how atheists should essentially sit down and shut up. Of course, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.
Now ... as far as not having the guts to engage people in person, seriously, Vizio, you should be ashamed of that comment. Not only is it baseless and unsubstantiated (some Christians seem to get their jollies from inventing armies of atheists who behave in a way that reinforces an atheist stereotype that *must* be true in order for their arguments to work), it's also untrue.
I WISH I could engage people in person -- if you think I'm "militant" here, where I have to slowly and often painfully type out responses, in person, I'm 10x better at debate.
Yet your accusation, ridiculous as it is, merely represents yet another example of pots and kettles. Because I haven't been confronted by any Christian trolls in person lately ... and there's far more of you than there are of us. So where are all of these gutsy, ballsy Christians, hmm, Vizio?
Because I'm ready to take on and demolish all comers ... in person or otherwise.
And I've noticed an increase in the number of Christians who believe their worldview should be the only one allowed a voice -- and whenever a dissenting opinion is brought to the fore, we get an earful from certain types about how atheists should essentially sit down and shut up. Of course, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.
I've never met such a Christian. But especially in the increasingly anti-God world we live in, it's often seen that way when we insist that we get an opinion at all. No one wants atheists to shut up. We just want to be treated as equal.
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Now ... as far as not having the guts to engage people in person, seriously, Vizio, you should be ashamed of that comment. Not only is it baseless and unsubstantiated (some Christians seem to get their jollies from inventing armies of atheists who behave in a way that reinforces an atheist stereotype that *must* be true in order for their arguments to work), it's also untrue.
I have no other way to explain the increase in internet atheist trolls the last 5-10 years. I don't see them acting like that in everyday life.
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I WISH I could engage people in person -- if you think I'm "militant" here, where I have to slowly and often painfully type out responses, in person, I'm 10x better at debate.
I get that. And you are not one of them I'm talking about. You need not take offense at my comment.
I've never met such a Christian. But especially in the increasingly anti-God world we live in, it's often seen that way when we insist that we get an opinion at all. No one wants atheists to shut up. We just want to be treated as equal.
Prop 8.
Roy Moore's illegal monument.
Kim Davis' defiance of the law.
You don't want to be treated as equal. You want to make everyone else subservient to you and call it equality.
Yes. We are voters and we do get to vote. What's your point?
Nothing about it was unconstitutional.
Everything about his actions was unconstitutional. Federal law has supremacy over state law in matters of jurisdictional conflict; the Constitution is a Federal document; Moore chose to disregard the dictates of Federal law in favor of his own belief system.
For the record: Article VI, Section 2:
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This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing [sic] in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Constitution prohibits the state endorsement of religion. By the Constitution that Roy Moore swore to uphold (which oath I will quote below), he is bound by, and must obey, the decisions made under Federal law.
28 USC s. 435:
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Each justice or judge of the United States shall take the following oath or affirmation before performing the duties of his office: “I, ___ ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as ___ under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God.”
They're all over the place, Vizio. In fact, Fox even had a segment, easily found on YouTube, about whether atheists *should* sit down and shut up and whether or not we even have the right to an opinion. Of course, they didn't bother to invite an atheist onto the panel, so it was 3 Christians arguing about the rights of atheists, and 2 of the 3 believed that atheists should keep their mouths shut and endure whatever perceived injustices religion throws at us.
The mere fact that they even *had* such a discussion panel about an issue that seems rather self-evident shows that atheists being allowed to express themselves *is* an issue -- and it shouldn't be.
Even on this forum, we atheists have been told numerous times by certain posters that atheists shouldn't even be allowed to post here unless we're essentially agreeing with the religious viewpoint. Otherwise, our atheistic point of view should be kept locked away in the Atheists and Agnostics sub-forum where no one but other atheists will likely see it.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
But especially in the increasingly anti-God world we live in, it's often seen that way when we insist that we get an opinion at all. No one wants atheists to shut up. We just want to be treated as equal.
When have Christians not been treated as equals? From where I sit, Christianity holds all the cards and now I wouldn't be surprised if fundamentalism doesn't again try to rear it's fascistic head and attempt to overturn the same sex marriage ruling -- for no better reason than because of passages in Deuteronomy. Why should any non-Christian be subjected to laws that force one to obey the Bible?
I would argue that 99% of atheists could co-exist peacefully with Christians were it not for the clash between funda-vangelist Christians who believe "religious liberty" means the right to impose their beliefs onto the whole of society and atheists who believe that everyone should have the right to make their own individual choices regarding religion and not have any belief system become the de facto state religion.
Sure, as I said before, there's that tiny 1% of atheists who pick lousy battles to fight and take things way too far, but we don't support those people.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I have no other way to explain the increase in internet atheist trolls the last 5-10 years. I don't see them acting like that in everyday life.
I think you and I are going to disagree heavily on what constitutes a "troll" in regards to atheism, but since I haven't the slightest notion of what an atheist has to do in order to be a troll in your eyes, I can't speak intelligently on this issue.
However, I will say that atheism hasn't had a voice in America since its founding. Only since the advent of the internet has atheism been able to get its message out -- and allow for the individual expression of atheists. There is over three centuries of pent-up anger that has only been unleashed over the last 10 or so years. Of course there are going to be angry atheists. What do you expect when, even today, religious leaders are lying to the American people by claiming all atheists are essentially immoral hedonists with no moral compass, people who merely want to wallow in sinful behavior and reject God to avoid accountability.
What rubbish, what utter stupidity! Yet polling data still shows that atheists are the least liked, least trusted group in America. Why? Where does this intense dislike come from? Certainly not the actual actions of atheists because we haven't really done anything; we're not responsible for terrorism, violence, or the perceived "moral decline" of America. We're not responsible for the ways in which America is failing. Atheism is too disorganized, too small of a group, and so reviled that *many* atheists choose to remain in the closet, so to speak, not take to the streets in raging opposition to religious tyranny.
The *only* explanation for this intense dislike of atheists is religious propaganda. Thus it stands to reason that Christianity is going to suffer a backlash from atheists who are innocent of the charges religion continues to levy against them.
This is one very important reason why many atheists won't engage Christians in person. The internet offers anonymity. Unfortunately, in the real world, there can be -- and often are -- consequences for being an atheist. I have no doubt there are tens of thousands (if not many more than that) of atheists who are stuck in religious communities, have religious families, religious employers, etc., who would make their lives very difficult if they were ever "outed" as a non-believer. So they come to the internet where they can express themselves freely and without fear of social backlash -- and yeah, they're going to be angry sometimes, and rightly so.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I get that. And you are not one of them I'm talking about. You need not take offense at my comment.
Thanks. I wasn't really personally offended. I used myself as an example merely to show that we weren't all like that. Sorry if there were any misunderstandings.
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