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Old 11-16-2016, 02:57 PM
 
10,072 posts, read 5,685,820 times
Reputation: 2883

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
Kim Davis was in contempt of court for refusing to obey a Federal court order (and I will point out again that Article VI of the Constitution gives the Constitution and Federal law primacy over state law).

There is no 'religious freedom' that allows someone to violate the law, nor does the practice of Christianity require that she break the law (in fact, I believe that 'that shalt not steal' is one of the Ten Commandments). By the logic you have just presented, a bank teller could steal from her bank because it charges interest and her religion prohibits usury.
And that court order violated her freedom of religion. It forced her to violate her moral beliefs or be fired. That's WRONG!!

Your side just REFUSES to see a conflict of laws here, but hey it's perfectly fine whenever the laws swing your way.
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:59 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Good luck with that. The "contradictions" are all in your point of view.
No they aren't. They are literal
--Your D&C says God has a mortal body of flesh and bones as tangeble as man's---The Bible says God is Spirit.
--Smith said Jesus was the first born of Jehovah as Elohim. The Bible says Jehovah and Elohim are the same entity.
--Mcconkie says J. Smith, Michael, Noah and some others helped Jesus in the Creation. The Bible says God did it with no help.

There are many more but you won't accept these or them, although the 3 I posed are simple and in Black and white.

There are even contradictions between the BOM and some of the D&C's


Quote:
Well, you must be an awfully good cook. That's all I can say.
It's not fancy but everyone seems to enjoy it. I think the come back because the get a good home-cooked meal and I treat them with respect and they are hopefully they can convince me to become a Mormon.

Quote:
No, the Bible does not tell us that. That's just your messed up interpretation of Revelation.
It is certainly does. The problem is your messed up understdning.

Quote:
I've seen it happen, although so far, not with you.
Some in the forum treat Christians worse the most door to door Mormons are eve treated.

Quote:
If they think you are even remotely open-minded to their beliefs, you are leading them on. If they know exactly how you feel, and that you only want to show them "the error of their ways," then that's their problem. As I said before, they must be awfully hard up for a decent meal if they're willing to meet with you weekly and listen to you tell them that they're "not saved" or that they "believe in the wrong Jesus" or whatever else you feel like throwing at them. I just wish I could talk to them and suggest that they not waste their valuable time on someone who is completely closed-minded about their religion. As a matter of fact, tell them that someone you know online has offered to send them a check to dine out on the night you generally feed them. Then they can spend their time talking to someone who is willing to consider the possibility that they might have something worthwhile to share with them.
You need to stop speaking from ignorance. Twice you have implied I am leading them on and now you say I have old them they are not saved. I have never told them that. I can't know their heart. In fact I have told them I am not trying to convert them. I just want us all to know the truth. What I throw at them is what the Bible says and they can look it up if they want to.

I will tell them what you said, and if they want me to I will give you their phone number and you can make your off of a free meal to them personal.

IMO, they will stick with me rather than some kind of a different Mormon. I ask you what that meant one time and if you answered, I missed it. Why not explain what that means. Then I will tell them and see if they agree.

You have got one thing right. I am completely closed minded about any theology that contradicts the "Bible.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:03 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
If I knew that, I would have posted some examples and agreed wholeheartedly with you. I'm not being dishonest. If you want my opinion, I think it seems at least somewhat dishonest to make a claim with no foundation whatsoever. So, I'll just ask again, "What Constitutional rights have been denied anybody in the US in our lifetimes because they are Christians?"

Some Constitutional rights:

Freedom of religion
Freedom of speech
Freedom of Assembly
Right to petition the government
Freedom of the press
Right to bear arms
Freedom from quartering soldiers
Protection against unreasonable search & seizure
Freedom from self-incrimination
Right to a speedy trial
Right to a trial by jury of ones peers
Freedom from unusual punishment
Right to due process under law
Right of citizens to vote

Anybody know of any of these that have been denied to anybody because they happen to be Christians?
I gave you some if you bothered to google whatg I told you. If you didn't it is dishonest to say you have not been given any examples.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:05 PM
 
10,072 posts, read 5,685,820 times
Reputation: 2883
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
That sounds a lot like saying "I'll let you know what violates my religion when I see a law I don't like."

Kim Davis was not jailed for refusing to endorse SSM. She was jailed because she chose to defy a federal court judge's order. Show what your religion has defined as the tenets of your faith for the past century or so, and you'll probably find almost zero disagreement from the entire community here in this forum for your right to practice those tenets. It's really nor fair to start adding provisions to your religion and claim that's what you believe is fundamental to your church when the founders of your denomination never said a word about those things.
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev. 18:22

Our tenant of faith is that we are not suppose to engage or endorse acts that are abominations to God.

It is disgusting to see anti-Christian bigots use the laws of land to essentially weed Christianity out of society. Now there is a case where they are trying to get the Gideon Bible removing from VA facilities. Groups like FFRF take the Establishment Clause to such extremes to mean that government must not acknowledge, touch or even be in the same breathing space of anything to do with religion. And that is not Constitutional.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:07 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Well said.

The Founding Fathers did not establish a special set of rights under the Constitution for Special Snowflake Believers.
Why do you feel it is necessary to be insulting? Do you not have the intellect to discuss our differences in a civil manner?
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,021,333 times
Reputation: 14068
Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Why do you feel it is necessary to be insulting? Do you not have the intellect to discuss our differences in a civil manner?
LOL!

My irony meter broke again.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:15 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Since I am a Christian, not a Special Snowflake Believer, none of these things take away my rights as a Christian and/or American.
What makes you a Christian and what makes others a Snowflake Believer. Don't get your panty-hose in a knot, I am not suggesting you are not one.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:18 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
If you want to call me that since I just want my rights, ok. Fine. There are definitely worse things to be protesting, and there are worse things that are being protested.
Your OPINION of what is worse, is just that and opinions can be wrong.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:31 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,976,845 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Your link doesn't work. Even though you posted it 3 or 4 times, it still doesn't work.

Vizio's post had to do with Christians having their rights taken away from them. I asked which rights were taken away for being Christian, not whether some Christians had done something that got the attention of the authorities. Now what function of the exercise of your religion has been taken away? Are you forbidden from attending services? Are you forbidden from wearing appropriate religious garments at appropriate times? Has your holy book been banned? Is somebody trying to prevent you from believing whatever you want to believe? Have you been prevented from praying in any way that is defining of your religion?

Here are 2 examples from that site:

#1 Home Bible studies are now banned in the city of San Juan Capistrano, California. According to city officials, regular gatherings “of more than three people” in private homes are simply not allowed. One couple that has held home Bible studies for years has already been fined twice and is being threatened with even more fines.


#3 In Wichita, Kansas last year, a Christian minister was handcuffed and hauled off to jail by police for sharing the gospel and handing out tracts to Muslims on a public sidewalk. Apparently freedom of speech does not apply on the public sidewalks of America any longer.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,898 posts, read 29,718,726 times
Reputation: 13058
Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
No they aren't. They are literal
--Your D&C says God has a mortal body of flesh and bones as tangeble as man's---The Bible says God is Spirit.
Of course God is spirit. The Greek word, pneuma, is translated in the Bible as both "spirit" and "life." "God is spirit" means nothing more than "God is life." He is a living, sentient Being, not merely an abstract force. Furthermore, He is the source of all life. If your spirit can reside within a corporeal body and if Jesus' spirit can reside within a corporeal body, why cannot God the Father (in whose image we are all created) not reside within a corporeal body? The fact that God is spirit doesn't preclude Him from being many other things, as well. God is light, love, and spirit. None of these attributes alone define him. They merely describe some of the things He is.

Quote:
--Smith said Jesus was the first born of Jehovah as Elohim. The Bible says Jehovah and Elohim are the same entity.
First of all, Joseph Smith didn't say what you claim he did. For one thing, you've got it backwards. You are saying that Jehovah was the Father and Elohim was the Son. It's the other way around. And secondly, the Bible does not say "Jehovah and Elohim are the same entity." You have interpreted it to mean that, but you cannot provide a single solitary verse that says this.

Quote:
--Mcconkie says J. Smith, Michael, Noah and some others helped Jesus in the Creation. The Bible says God did it with no help.
McConkie says? Since when does his opinion matter? I've never seen that statement before, but even if he did say it, so what? And the Bible doesn't say, "God did it with no help." The Bible gives the Son (Jesus Christ) credit for the actual work of the Creation, but He did so under His Father's direction.

Quote:
There are many more but you won't accept these or them, although the 3 I posed are simple and in Black and white.
I don't care if you post them in black and white or in orange and green, in bold face, underlined and in italics. It doesn't change the fact that your interpretations of what the Bible says and the LDS interpretations of what the Bible says are different. But in none of your three examples does the Bible actually say what you are claiming it says. It merely says something that you are paraphrasing to mean what you believe to be the truth. I have no problem with your interpreting it differently than I do. My only problem is when you say, "The Bible says [blah, blah, blah]" when the Bible doesn't actually say that at all. Next time you want to argue what the Bible says, try actually quoting it.

Quote:
There are even contradictions between the BOM and some of the D&C's
And there are contradictions between the various books in the Bible. So what?

Quote:
It's not fancy but everyone seems to enjoy it. I think the come back because the get a good home-cooked meal and I treat them with respect and they are hopefully they can convince me to become a Mormon.
Well, to each his own. If they're into wasting their time, so be it.

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It is certainly does. The problem is your messed up understanding.
Then quote the verse you are referring to and we'll talk about it.

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Some in the forum treat Christians worse the most door to door Mormons are eve treated.
So two wrongs now make a right, huh?

Quote:
You need to stop speaking from ignorance. Twice you have implied I am leading them on and now you say I have old them they are not saved. I have never told them that. I can't know their heart. In fact I have told them I am not trying to convert them. I just want us all to know the truth. What I throw at them is what the Bible says and they can look it up if they want to.
Well, I'm not worried about them. I think they know what the Bible says as well as you do.

Quote:
I will tell them what you said, and if they want me to I will give you their phone number and you can make your off of a free meal to them personal.
Be my guest. I would love to have a chat with them about the kinds of things you have posted about their beliefs online. And then, of course, I'll offer to buy them dinner and let them use their valuable time talking to someone who would actually like to learn what they have to say. Since 800-900 people are converted to Mormonism every day, I'm sure they can find someone else to talk to.

Quote:
IMO, they will stick with me rather than some kind of a different Mormon.
LOL! Let me tell you something, Omega. Mormonism doesn't require its members to all think exactly alike. We are allowed -- we are even encouraged -- to think for ourselves. So, I suspect they would stick with me any day than with someone who says malicious things about their beliefs behind their backs.

Quote:
I ask you what that meant one time and if you answered, I missed it. Why not explain what that means.
I did explain what it means. I responded to your post almost immediately. I can't even remember what thread it was on now, though, and I'm not going to bother looking for it. The ball's in your court.

Quote:
Then I will tell them and see if they agree.
You'll see if they agree? Agree with what? That I'm "not your average Mormon" or that I'm not a Mormon at all? Or something else entirely? And by all means, let them cast their vote.

Quote:
You have got one thing right. I am completely closed minded about any theology that contradicts the "Bible.
Yeah, but so far you haven't provided any evidence (to me) that LDS theology does contradict the Bible. You've at least made an attempt in this thread, but you haven't succeeded. All you've done is prove that LDS theology (as you understand it -- and, as I've proven, you (a) don't really understand it and (b) would actually prefer to remain ignorant of it) contradicts your interpretation of what the Bible says.

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-16-2016 at 03:54 PM..
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