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Old 07-14-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Florida
478 posts, read 771,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry View Post
Absolutely NOT. Freedom of expression and Freedom of Religion are both necessary to "Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness."
I agree with you completely. But I do not see the burqua as freedom and expression of religion.

Now if the men AND women both wore burquas, then that would be considered expression of religion and to take said attire away would be an infringement. But since it is only women who wear them, and only if their husband asks/requires them to, then it is religious persecution, something that should not be condoned. And though it may still perhaps be considered an infringement upon their culture to ban their attire, I say too bad- if it isn't something that ALL members of society do, and if a burqa isn't good enough for a man then it is shouldn't be forced on a women.

If there were some culture that had women in spike-lined handcuffs and chains as the standard, would that also be considered their "freedom of religion"? What about white sheets with hoods? There was a time when that was considered "freedom of religion"...

Sometimes it's important that we look closely at some "traditions", and when they simply do nothing to empower and help those who practice them, nor the world at large, then it's time for them to go- at least within any capacity that we can control; obviously we can't, nor shouldn't police other countries or cultures. But we can certainly control our own, and make the moves to do that which will send a clear and curt message to the rest of the world- which is what France is doing. So if anyone wants to force their women to wear burqas, I guess they'd better do it in a place that is not France. To that, I say YAY France! And I hope the rest of the world follows suit.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:04 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,031,648 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Hm. This is a very difficult question. The problem is, veiled women are impossible to identify at face value. This opens the door to anyone putting on a burqa, committing crimes, and there being no way to identify them (brown eyes?!?! doesn't give the police much to go on)

Would I support a law that prevents women from veiling in public? Not at this time. I have not heard of any trend here where I live of burqa clad women or men committing violent crimes.

If there were a rash of violent crimes committed by burqa wearing individuals, I might rethink it.

It is such a touchy topic because it goes right to the heart of what this country was founded upon, the right of individuals to practice their religion without discrimination.




I think it would liberate some and restrict some. For some women who are wearing it for whatever reason but would rather not, such a law might enable them to be rid of it and giving them good reason to do so. For those women, however, who truly feel the need to wear it, it might really be a prison sentence. Because if they really feel the need to wear it, and CAN'T, they might not leave the house. And surely this woman would not feel liberated, she would feel more restricted than if she was living in the most orthodox Islamic nation.



I don't know. :



As far as I am concerned regarding the licenses, a burqa should NOT be allowed to be worn for the photograph. Bottom line, not allowed. The issue of a woman driving with a burqa is another matter, for I am not convinced that a woman in a burqa would be able to see well enough to drive, frankly. But we can take that up in another thread. I have never worn a burqa so I could be wrong on this, and if I try it out and can drive fine, I'll stand corrected.

A female muslim making a pilgrimage to Mecca, the holiestcity in Islam, may not veil her face. If she must be unveiled in Mecca, I don't see a reason she cannot be unveiled for 5 minutes at the DMV.

I completely disagree with Jazzymom that a license is a privilege not a right. As far as I am concerned, a driver's license is the right of any individual who is of age, pays the necessary fees, passes the exam, and maintains a good driving record.


A privilege that can be taken away if you get to many tickets, drive drunk, or do not carry the necessary insurance. Rights like the right to bear arms cannot be taken away unless you are a felon. Driving is an earned privilege and it can be taken away.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: NSW, Australia
4,493 posts, read 6,305,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
The real problem, at least here in the US, is that we live in a society where technicalities and precedents are extrapolated way beyond the original intent of the law.

Suppose you enact a ban on 'religious attire,' intending to prevent wearing of the burqa. How do you think people are going to react when this law is suddenly invoked against...let's see...Jews wearing yarmulkes, or (great cooga-mooga!) Christians wearing crosses. If religious attire is illegal, then it's gotta be stopped, period.

I think it would only pertain to clothing that obscures identification of the individual. It would not be about banning it on religious grounds and therefore generalisable to every article of religious attire. It's about the use of this particular item of clothing to perform illegal acts and not be identified.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:18 PM
 
Location: NSW, Australia
4,493 posts, read 6,305,242 times
Reputation: 10592
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Hm. This is a very difficult question. The problem is, veiled women are impossible to identify at face value. This opens the door to anyone putting on a burqa, committing crimes, and there being no way to identify them (brown eyes?!?! doesn't give the police much to go on)
It is a difficult question and this is why I asked it. I couldn't quite work out how I felt about it.

I am fairly ignorant of the custom and rules around the wearing of a burqa. Could you tell me if a woman was asked to lift her veil for identification purposes by a police officer or asked to remove it on entering a bank, would this cause a big problem for her? Would it cause her just embarrassment or something much worse?
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:55 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,620,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Could you tell me if a woman was asked to lift her veil for identification purposes by a police officer or asked to remove it on entering a bank, would this cause a big problem for her?
As I understand it, if the police officer was a woman, and not necessarily another Muslim woman, there would be no problem in uncovering her face.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:40 PM
 
Location: NSW, Australia
4,493 posts, read 6,305,242 times
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I guess what I am really asking here is, at what point do security issues override religious issues? There will not always be a female official around to check a person's identity. Helmets and balaclavas are not aloud to be worn in banks for obvious reasons and people are taking advantage of burqas to disguise themselves knowing full well that religious sensitivity will prohibit people from asking them to remove it on entering a premises.

Then of course, there is the concern of terrorism. I don't want to imply that Muslims are terrorists, BUT the burqa can be used by anyone wishing to commit such an act regardless of their religion.

The Burqa Bomb | Global Terrorism (http://www.rightsidenews.com/201004229692/global-terrorism/the-burqa-bomb.html - broken link)
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:24 PM
 
6 posts, read 11,313 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Good question. I think that because it is only worn by those adhering to a religious belief then it would be considered religious attire. I happen to agree that it is symbolic of oppression of women, BUT in a supposedly free society the choice should fall on the woman what she wishes to wear shouldn't it? I guess what it comes down to is if she wears it because she wants to or because she feels she has to for fear of the consequences of not wearing it.

Would a ban liberate the woman or restrict her even more?
I agree it is not religious attire it is a tool of oppression. As such it must be banned. Religions must deserve respect in order to receive it.
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:55 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 7,338,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Burkas being used by criminals as disguises is becoming commonplace.

Niqabs and Burqas as Security Threats :: Daniel Pipes
Commonplace? This article you link mentions crimes committed by people obscured by burqas in various countries spanning the globe. I would hardly call that "commonplace".

Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666 View Post
I agree with you completely. But I do not see the burqua as freedom and expression of religion.

Now if the men AND women both wore burquas, then that would be considered expression of religion and to take said attire away would be an infringement. But since it is only women who wear them, and only if their husband asks/requires them to, then it is religious persecution, something that should not be condoned. And though it may still perhaps be considered an infringement upon their culture to ban their attire, I say too bad- if it isn't something that ALL members of society do, and if a burqa isn't good enough for a man then it is shouldn't be forced on a women.

If there were some culture that had women in spike-lined handcuffs and chains as the standard, would that also be considered their "freedom of religion"? What about white sheets with hoods? There was a time when that was considered "freedom of religion"...

Sometimes it's important that we look closely at some "traditions", and when they simply do nothing to empower and help those who practice them, nor the world at large, then it's time for them to go- at least within any capacity that we can control; obviously we can't, nor shouldn't police other countries or cultures. But we can certainly control our own, and make the moves to do that which will send a clear and curt message to the rest of the world- which is what France is doing. So if anyone wants to force their women to wear burqas, I guess they'd better do it in a place that is not France. To that, I say YAY France! And I hope the rest of the world follows suit.
It seems you are under the impression that the only women who wear burqas are those whose husbands ask/require them to. That is not correct.

Also, since when does a dress code in a religion have to require the same dress for men and women? Several religions require women to wear skirts or dresses and obviously don't require the men to wear skirts and dresses. Also, some religions require women to wear caps on their heads and not the men. I have seen orthodox Jewish women who cover their hair, the husbands don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
[/u][/b]

A privilege that can be taken away if you get to many tickets, drive drunk, or do not carry the necessary insurance. Rights like the right to bear arms cannot be taken away unless you are a felon. Driving is an earned privilege and it can be taken away.
Same difference, I guess. If you want to call a driver's license a privilege, you may as well call the "right" to bear arms a privilege as well, since both require paperwork, applications, fees, terms, conditions, and both (whether called right or privilege) can be taken away if certain conditions are or are not met.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
It is a difficult question and this is why I asked it. I couldn't quite work out how I felt about it.

I am fairly ignorant of the custom and rules around the wearing of a burqa. Could you tell me if a woman was asked to lift her veil for identification purposes by a police officer or asked to remove it on entering a bank, would this cause a big problem for her? Would it cause her just embarrassment or something much worse?
Lady Ice, I am not that familiar with the whole burqa thing either, or how these burqa wearing women feel about lifting the veil for identification purposes. As far as I am concerned if they are asked by a police officer to lift their veil for identification purposes, they should comply. However, having them lift the veil would be pointless if they've got a driver's license like the one sanspeur posted.

As I said before, pilgrims going to Mecca cannot be veiled. As far as I know, it is not anywhere in the Quran or Sunnah (sayings of the prophet) that women should be veiled. So as far as I am concerned, it is so to speak, an extra step above and beyond what is necessary. So taking it off to enter a bank or identify oneself should not be a problem. I have known some very strict Muslims and have never met or known any that wear a burqa.

And if the woman had to remove the veil for identification purposes, and she was embarrassed, that is all it would be, what other worse thing were you thinking might happen? She's not going to hell because a male police officer saw her face.

Just to be clear, when I speak of removing the veil for identification, I am not talking about removing the head scarf, I am only referring to removing the cloth covering the face. Under really no circumstances should it be necessary for a woman to have to remove the head covering for identification purposes.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:26 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
I am rather alarmed at the movement in France to ban the Burka.

I may not like it much - I don't like hoodies, body piercing or dyed hair colour either - but I would never want to see legislation about what people can or can't wear as such.

Of course, there's a case for neccessity such as not allowing people to pose for passport photos with their face covered or ride a motocycle wearing a turban instead of a crash hat..oh, we already let them do that, I believe.

But that's another matter altogether. I can understand the argument about different modes of dress encouraging feelings of divergence, but I would much prefer to celerate diversty of culture rather than to demand cultural uniformity y legal force.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:54 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 4,158,378 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I just read this article...

Telstra BigPond News and Weather (http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2010/07/14/French_parliament_approves_burqa_ban_484538.html - broken link)

It says that the French lower house has just passed a ban on wearing Burqas. I am not sure how I feel about this, I can see many points for and against.

There is also a move to ban Burqas in Australia as well...

Burqa ban is 'un-Australian' say Muslims | News.com.au

I would be very interested to see what other people think about this. I think it's hard to get past the infringement on a person's basic rights to dress how they want to and practice whatever religion they please as long as it hurts nobody else. On the other hand as the second article states, the head-wear is becoming the disguise of choice in robberies. It has not become a law in practice yet so it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Is there any such move in the USA? If there was, would you support it or would you be against it?
They are not banning the burka, but the act of covering ones face.
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