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I really can't see why you are having so much problem with the question I am repeatedly putting to you (well I can but that's another issue). Every time I give you the question you come back with the 'free will' argument and this argument has absolutely no bearing on the question I'm asking you. Please understand, before one of us dies, that the question of omniscience has NOTHING to do with your 'free will' nonsense. The question is to do with your god knowing the past, present and future.
Let's try a different tack. Let us imagine that I am a motor mechanic, (a very special motor mechanic because I am able to see into the future...) and I'm going to build an engine from scratch. As I am fitting each component to the engine I KNOW that this engine I am building is not going to run. I know this because (1) I know that the components are defective and (2) I have seen, (via my ability to see into the future) that the engine will destroy itself as soon as I begin to use it. Nevertheless, I continue to build the engine. I finish constructing the engine and fit it to my car. I turn the ignition key and BOOM!!...the engine blows up....exactly as knew it would. So what do I do?? I now start to blame the engine for blowing up when in reality it was my fault that it did..because I didn't construct it correctly in the first place.
Given the above analogy, would you consider me a good mechanic?
Oh, and please don't come back with the A+E (the components) were not defective...that they were 'perfect' because if they had been perfect they could not have 'sinned' could they? Imperfection can't come from perfection. If it does, it wasn't perfect to begin with.
...and PLEEEEAAAASSSSE don't give me the 'free will' excuse again....otherwise I shall be forced to come round to your house and insert a large garden vegetable into you.
I actually tried to find the answer on my own. I know how some view the witnesses. Now this is straight from their site. Would you read it and see if it sheds any light on your question?
Born in sin is not scripture.
In fact, Genesis is arguably not our fall but our elevation to gaining our moral sense.
To Adams sin being passed down.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
I really can't see why you are having so much problem with the question I am repeatedly putting to you (well I can but that's another issue). Every time I give you the question you come back with the 'free will' argument and this argument has absolutely no bearing on the question I'm asking you. Please understand, before one of us dies, that the question of omniscience has NOTHING to do with your 'free will' nonsense. The question is to do with your god knowing the past, present and future.
Let's try a different tack. Let us imagine that I am a motor mechanic, (a very special motor mechanic because I am able to see into the future...) and I'm going to build an engine from scratch. As I am fitting each component to the engine I KNOW that this engine I am building is not going to run. I know this because (1) I know that the components are defective and (2) I have seen, (via my ability to see into the future) that the engine will destroy itself as soon as I begin to use it. Nevertheless, I continue to build the engine. I finish constructing the engine and fit it to my car. I turn the ignition key and BOOM!!...the engine blows up....exactly as knew it would. So what do I do?? I now start to blame the engine for blowing up when in reality it was my fault that it did..because I didn't construct it correctly in the first place.
Given the above analogy, would you consider me a good mechanic?
Oh, and please don't come back with the A+E (the components) were not defective...that they were 'perfect' because if they had been perfect they could not have 'sinned' could they? Imperfection can't come from perfection. If it does, it wasn't perfect to begin with.
...and PLEEEEAAAASSSSE don't give me the 'free will' excuse again....otherwise I shall be forced to come round to your house and insert a large garden vegetable into you.
Lets use this analogy, shall we?
You are the master mechanic. The best there is, no one is even close to your greatness. You have a grand shop with the best assistants in the world. You trained them and they are good! You decide that you want to build a car with the ability to think and communicate with you. That car is very dear to you so of course you want to treat it with the best of care. But you also want it to obey only you because it is yours. You built it, it wouldn't be fair to you, if one of your assistants got the car to obey them.
It's a great car, it even has the ability to drive it's self. You tell of the area and warn the car of a road that is in such bad shape that if the car takes it, it will eventually destroy the car. One of your assistants becomes jealous of you and your greatness. He wants the car to obey him. He tells the car that that road won't destroy it but that it will lead to anywhere the car desires to go. The car decides to take it. Now what? Your amazing car is going down that road. Should you go after it or let it find out for it's self, that you weren't lying but that you were only trying to protect it?
Now all the other assistants are watching, wondering what you will do. They look up to you, you are the best!. They aren't sure what to think though because your car listened to someone else. Your assistant that lied isn't worthy of remaining at your shop. Just firing him though won't answer the question as to who would be better to own that car. He may even be able to repair any damages to the car, right? Nope, it won't be that easy because it was designed by you and you are the only one that has the knowledge to repair it back to mint condition.
The challenge. Should you go get the car and repair any damages it may have? Should you just scrap it and start all over? Should you run the liar off and tell him to never come back to your shop again? Or, should you let the liar go get the car, try to repair it and prove to everyone including the car that no one could be a better owner of that car than you and that you are indeed the master mechanic?
And yes, Adam, Eve and Satan were all perfect at one time.
You are the master mechanic. The best there is, no one is even close to your greatness. You have a grand shop with the best assistants in the world. You trained them and they are good! You decide that you want to build a car with the ability to think and communicate with you. That car is very dear to you so of course you want to treat it with the best of care. But you also want it to obey only you because it is yours. You built it, it wouldn't be fair to you, if one of your assistants got the car to obey them.
It's a great car, it even has the ability to drive it's self. You tell of the area and warn the car of a road that is in such bad shape that if the car takes it, it will eventually destroy the car. One of your assistants becomes jealous of you and your greatness. He wants the car to obey him. He tells the car that that road won't destroy it but that it will lead to anywhere the car desires to go. The car decides to take it. Now what? Your amazing car is going down that road. Should you go after it or let it find out for it's self, that you weren't lying but that you were only trying to protect it?
Now all the other assistants are watching, wondering what you will do. They look up to you, you are the best!. They aren't sure what to think though because your car listened to someone else. Your assistant that lied isn't worthy of remaining at your shop. Just firing him though won't answer the question as to who would be better to own that car. He may even be able to repair any damages to the car, right? Nope, it won't be that easy because it was designed by you and you are the only one that has the knowledge to repair it back to mint condition.
The challenge. Should you go get the car and repair any damages it may have? Should you just scrap it and start all over? Should you run the liar off and tell him to never come back to your shop again? Or, should you let the liar go get the car, try to repair it and prove to everyone including the car that no one could be a better owner of that car than you and that you are indeed the master mechanic?
And yes, Adam, Eve and Satan were all perfect at one time.
You forgot the inconvenient detail where the manufacturer of said rogue car knew before hand that the car would drive down the sinful road.
You are the master mechanic. The best there is, no one is even close to your greatness. You have a grand shop with the best assistants in the world. You trained them and they are good! You decide that you want to build a car with the ability to think and communicate with you. That car is very dear to you so of course you want to treat it with the best of care. But you also want it to obey only you because it is yours. You built it, it wouldn't be fair to you, if one of your assistants got the car to obey them.
It's a great car, it even has the ability to drive it's self. You tell of the area and warn the car of a road that is in such bad shape that if the car takes it, it will eventually destroy the car. One of your assistants becomes jealous of you and your greatness. He wants the car to obey him. He tells the car that that road won't destroy it but that it will lead to anywhere the car desires to go. The car decides to take it. Now what? Your amazing car is going down that road. Should you go after it or let it find out for it's self, that you weren't lying but that you were only trying to protect it?
Now all the other assistants are watching, wondering what you will do. They look up to you, you are the best!. They aren't sure what to think though because your car listened to someone else. Your assistant that lied isn't worthy of remaining at your shop. Just firing him though won't answer the question as to who would be better to own that car. He may even be able to repair any damages to the car, right? Nope, it won't be that easy because it was designed by you and you are the only one that has the knowledge to repair it back to mint condition.
The challenge. Should you go get the car and repair any damages it may have? Should you just scrap it and start all over? Should you run the liar off and tell him to never come back to your shop again? Or, should you let the liar go get the car, try to repair it and prove to everyone including the car that no one could be a better owner of that car than you and that you are indeed the master mechanic?
And yes, Adam, Eve and Satan were all perfect at one time.
You really didn't create an analogy or state anything you haven't already said. All you've done is replace "people" or "person" with "car".
Born in sin is not scripture.
In fact, Genesis is arguably not our fall but our elevation to gaining our moral sense.
To Adams sin being passed down.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Regards
DL
Ezekiel 18:20 is saying that the one sinning is the one that will die. The Father won't die because of the sins of his son and the son won't die because of the sins of his father.
Sin was passed down but we aren't to be held accountable for the sins of others.
No reason to warn if he thought there would be no chance of that happening.
Oh, well, I can only assume the 'manufacturer' you were speaking about is not omniscient.
ETA: BTW, despite our apparent theological differences, I love your name!
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