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Old 07-30-2010, 08:27 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Not at all. I am familiar with all the theist apologetics packages and the falsity of their argument and the 'religion is good for you' argument is a just one of them. I may write tongue in cheek but there's usually a serious point.(1)

I think your stress and angst assement falls under the 'Biased sample' fallacy. However, it certainly falls under the argument from intimidation fallacy and is irrelevant anyway to whether atheism is true or not. It might be less stressful to believe that everything is going fine in Afghanistan and the finacial situation is just peachy but not only is that questionable, it precudes doing anything to improve it.

Which is why your flawed 'rotten food' analogy is wrong. Given that our existence is only 'good in parts' some parts, as the curate said 'are excellent'. This is the only life we have, by all evidence, mate so I suggest you enjoy it rather than push it to the side of your plate and demand a better dish for your next life.

As for being covert, why should we be? We are not going to let the fundies drive us underground. Why should we not be up front about a requirement that atheism be given credit for as good as any other worldview and supported against denigration legally, if w can get it, for believe me there is no moral or legal argument why those of our view are not entitlesd to respect.

No, we are not afraid of 'tipping our hand' and having no hidden agenda as though we had something to be ashamed of. Unlike the Creationists who try to disguise their 'replace science with the Bible agenda' by pretending that it IS science.

I'll give you this, I am not sure what to make of you and maybe a lot of it is just kidding around. However, if it even LOOKS like a fakey theist argument, I am going to trash it and have a laugh while I do it, too.

(1)Others are the 'No morality without God' package, the 'History supports Jesus' package, the 'Proof through miracles' package, the 'divine instinct' package, 'Disprove God' package, the whole 'Watchmaker' package, the 'Hitler was an atheist package (incorporating the great atrocity count)' the 'Bible is true (incorporating proof from prophecy) package' and, of course, the 'appeal to numbers (incorporating the only 8% atheists)' package. And the most pernicious - the 'Pray to God' trial offer.
I'm simple to figure out as far as basic theology Old Chap. I just believe I have the answer to the end link in the "where did that come from?" chain. And who could ever argue against embracing the message of unconditional peace, love, and mercy passed down through the ages in the legend of the man called Jesus Christ? ANYONE that works from a good vibe would give props to that philosophy. The DETAILS...I'm still learning...they have to make logical sense. As you know, I feel I have I've found someone who has True info about those details...that makes logical sense.

Day to day life...I'm not very typical a person. You probably know very few people, if any, that live a life similar to mine...it's pretty strange and radical actually. Even to me, it's almost sureal...even after all these years. I'm not complaining or puffing...it just is what it is.

Organized religion...maybe 5% of what is left is pure...the rest is a scam IMO. Some of the charity stuff is VERY cool, though.

NOBODY should ever be persecuted for what they believe, if they are not harming anything or anybody with their belief...no matter WHAT they believe. Gods, Idols, Spirits, Famous People, Nothing, FSM & IPUs, Yourself, the Earth, the Cosmos....it doesn't make a difference. Either someone is cool...or they are not. Only if their belief is making them uncool should it even be mentioned, let alone criticized, IMO.

I also submit...your threat from the Fundie Christians has been greatly exaggerated in your minds. A couple radicals here and there to be dealt with...but not too big a deal. Some other belief concepts are a different story...they need to be kept a VERY close eye on. They're extremely dangerous...even if it's only a very small percentage...the ones cutting their own lifespan short...and taking innocents with them. The good in that group, doesn't have the resources to thwart the bad. Fortunately our militaries are on the case...and that is keeping it in check. They have put a BIG dent in it...props to them for doing that.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,331 posts, read 2,834,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
NOBODY should ever be persecuted for what they believe, if they are not harming anything or anybody with their belief...no matter WHAT they believe. Gods, Idols, Spirits, Famous People, Nothing, FSM & IPUs, Yourself, the Earth, the Cosmos....it doesn't make a difference. Either someone is cool...or they are not. Only if their belief is making them uncool should it even be mentioned, let alone criticized, IMO.

But this is no arbitrary state of Faith. This is no immediate experiential meaning for judgment. You want a world where people are no longer persecuted for believing from the occasions of their sentimental wishes to find determinism for Love, or just generally virtue. Their sentiments were attached to the others in their groups and social gatherings.

I think in cultural consequences, They all defend themselves admirably, and other will defend you as well.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:07 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I'm simple to figure out as far as basic theology Old Chap. I just believe I have the answer to the end link in the "where did that come from?" chain. And who could ever argue against embracing the message of unconditional peace, love, and mercy passed down through the ages in the legend of the man called Jesus Christ? ANYONE that works from a good vibe would give props to that philosophy. The DETAILS...I'm still learning...they have to make logical sense. As you know, I feel I have I've found someone who has True info about those details...that makes logical sense.

Day to day life...I'm not very typical a person. You probably know very few people, if any, that live a life similar to mine...it's pretty strange and radical actually. Even to me, it's almost sureal...even after all these years. I'm not complaining or puffing...it just is what it is.

Organized religion...maybe 5% of what is left is pure...the rest is a scam IMO. Some of the charity stuff is VERY cool, though.

NOBODY should ever be persecuted for what they believe, if they are not harming anything or anybody with their belief...no matter WHAT they believe. Gods, Idols, Spirits, Famous People, Nothing, FSM & IPUs, Yourself, the Earth, the Cosmos....it doesn't make a difference. Either someone is cool...or they are not. Only if their belief is making them uncool should it even be mentioned, let alone criticized, IMO.

I also submit...your threat from the Fundie Christians has been greatly exaggerated in your minds. A couple radicals here and there to be dealt with...but not too big a deal. Some other belief concepts are a different story...they need to be kept a VERY close eye on. They're extremely dangerous...even if it's only a very small percentage...the ones cutting their own lifespan short...and taking innocents with them. The good in that group, doesn't have the resources to thwart the bad. Fortunately our militaries are on the case...and that is keeping it in check. They have put a BIG dent in it...props to them for doing that.
We do agree on a lot, old Bean, don't we? Unconditional peace love and mercy (except for the unbelievers, of course, nothing too bad for them) is fine within limits (though the eternal turning of the other cheek is a rule that would be enthusiastically endorsed by those who just love smacking cheeks) and I have no problem with that so long as it is not used (as part of the God's morality package) to argue some sort of credit for Christianity, because it is not an idea patented and trademarked by Christianity. It is the ideal of all society.

Evidently you do that. Reasoning from the illogical initial assumption that Jesus Christ is the only possible starting point, you could never come to a correct conclusion even if Mystic's theory had any real validity.

I have no idea what your life's like but no matter how whacky a life is, it is no excuse for opting for flub. In principle I agree with your idea that everyone had a right to believe what they want. At the same time, would you seriously consider closing down schools and colleges and let everyone come to their own conclusions?

We have to put reliance on the educational systems based on the results of validated knowledge. It is utterly clear to me that religion is not supported by validated knowledge and that needs to be made universally clear. A partiality for a particular Faith has no business setting that aside and it is our duty to correct this long held and false idea that Religious Faith is somehow empirically valid.

I do hope that you are right that the Fundy threat has been overestimated and the millions being poured into setting up colleges where certificates in creationism are handed out, that TV shows are bought by evangelists, that court cases are brought to have Genesis taught in the Science class and that Hospitals are founded by Fundies in order to make prayer part of the treatment is somewhat overestimated by me. If so, then our job is going to be that much easier. In the meantime, I advocate an atheist modus operandi assuming a worst possible case scenario.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:23 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
We do agree on a lot, old Bean, don't we? Unconditional peace love and mercy (except for the unbelievers, of course, nothing too bad for them) is fine within limits (though the eternal turning of the other cheek is a rule that would be enthusiastically endorsed by those who just love smacking cheeks) and I have no problem with that so long as it is not used (as part of the God's morality package) to argue some sort of credit for Christianity, because it is not an idea patented and trademarked by Christianity. It is the ideal of all society.

Evidently you do that. Reasoning from the illogical initial assumption that Jesus Christ is the only possible starting point, you could never come to a correct conclusion even if Mystic's theory had any real validity.

I have no idea what your life's like but no matter how whacky a life is, it is no excuse for opting for flub. In principle I agree with your idea that everyone had a right to believe what they want. At the same time, would you seriously consider closing down schools and colleges and let everyone come to their own conclusions?

We have to put reliance on the educational systems based on the results of validated knowledge. It is utterly clear to me that religion is not supported by validated knowledge and that needs to be made universally clear. A partiality for a particular Faith has no business setting that aside and it is our duty to correct this long held and false idea that Religious Faith is somehow empirically valid.

I do hope that you are right that the Fundy threat has been overestimated and the millions being poured into setting up colleges where certificates in creationism are handed out, that TV shows are bought by evangelists, that court cases are brought to have Genesis taught in the Science class and that Hospitals are founded by Fundies in order to make prayer part of the treatment is somewhat overestimated by me. If so, then our job is going to be that much easier. In the meantime, I advocate an atheist modus operandi assuming a worst possible case scenario.
I know Jesus' message wasn't exclusive to Him. His legend of that message is just by far the best known. It's appeal to me is that "it IS the ideal of all society".

Of course "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" benefits the perpetrator more than the victim...that's why the perps embellished and emphasized the original message of tolerance, forgiveness, and mercy...and used it to avoid retribution for their evil...with the threat of hell to back it up, of course. The trick is to get EVERYBODY practicing peace and love...then you have no perps.

My "believe what you want" concept, was relative to theology. I don't advocate closing up schools...though I do think they could do a much better job here in the U.S. Statistics JUST came out...we don't even rank in the top 20 for math and science...ummmmm, that SUX! I don't know about the Britain. Of course people are going to have a natural bias toward what they do (I'm the rare exception to that) so the scientists are going to place great stock in science and the derivative technology. I have said I was born 200 years too late. No insult to the brilliant people that worked so hard to develop it...but it seems the more technology we get...the more we get "wimpy", the more we waste time (it seems no one can go more than 20 minutes without having to talk on the phone), and the more we pollute the planet. We could do without a lot of it...and be BETTER off. Just my view on it.

Hey...just view the Evangelists on TV as any other show about a fictitious scenario, if that's your view. Get around a bunch of young women...they talked about "Sex and the City" like it was reality....and soap operas run for decades.

And there could be worse things than a hospital that wouldn't have otherwise existed being built by a religious organization. Some of them have the finest doctors and care in the world. If they throw some prayer in to go with it...so what? It doesn't hurt a thing...and not having the hospital would be much worse.

You may not agree, but my advice to the Atheists, is to lighten up. Human nature is to fight back when you are challenged. Keep pushing and you will be WORSE off. Study basic military tactics...you never fight when you are completely outgunned, if you don't have to. You'll just end up wiped out. Working it covertly from the inside, is your best chance. That is my worry. I don't want religion taught in the public schools either. But the way the Atheists keep pushing it...they are assuring it...rather than the opposite. Maybe not in England, but in the U.S...if the religious get jacked enough...and want to fully organize and coordinate...they would be a undefeatable force that could sweep every election...take over the government...and pass whatever law they want...even change the Constitution. They always preached "turn the other cheek"...but they rarely followed their own advice. The chance of getting stung really bad is way worse if you are poking at the hornets nest...than if you stay back and just whack the individuals only if they are a problem. Chill out...you'll "live" longer. LOL.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,541,204 times
Reputation: 199
Nonsense... Barbarians live longer and have more children... Christians die very quickly... At them the belief in own forces is broken.

Love ...
These sayings had a continuation.
" To Love (if the near person is worthy )... etc etc....
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:18 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I know Jesus' message wasn't exclusive to Him. His legend of that message is just by far the best known. It's appeal to me is that "it IS the ideal of all society".

Of course "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" benefits the perpetrator more than the victim...that's why the perps embellished and emphasized the original message of tolerance, forgiveness, and mercy...and used it to avoid retribution for their evil...with the threat of hell to back it up, of course. The trick is to get EVERYBODY practicing peace and love...then you have no perps.
I agree. It would be very nice if everyone was nice, but you won't do that by just preaching at them. That's why Religion fails. People are very good at just taking the bits they want and sidelining the rest. That is setting aside the problems when hostile and hateful people think they are doing what Jesus wants.

Quote:
My "believe what you want" concept, was relative to theology. I don't advocate closing up schools...though I do think they could do a much better job here in the U.S. Statistics JUST came out...we don't even rank in the top 20 for math and science...ummmmm, that SUX! I don't know about the Britain. Of course people are going to have a natural bias toward what they do (I'm the rare exception to that) so the scientists are going to place great stock in science and the derivative technology. I have said I was born 200 years too late. No insult to the brilliant people that worked so hard to develop it...but it seems the more technology we get...the more we get "wimpy", the more we waste time (it seems no one can go more than 20 minutes without having to talk on the phone), and the more we pollute the planet. We could do without a lot of it...and be BETTER off. Just my view on it.
Yes, in fact people can believe what they want about anything. Religion should have no special consideration. My point is that we are obliged to use the educational system to set out all the facts, arguments and conclusions and, if they do not fit in with religious beliefs then religion has no business to say they shouldn't say it. That is, we can't be silent about the very poor factual basis of religion and we are obliged to say so.

Quote:
Hey...just view the Evangelists on TV as any other show about a fictitious scenario, if that's your view. Get around a bunch of young women...they talked about "Sex and the City" like it was reality....and soap operas run for decades.
Tell me about it! The news here is more about the ficticious doings of soap -opera characters than reality. And the number of posts we get here that quote some episode of 'Bones' or 'Voyager' as a basis for some supposedly serious argument.

Quote:
And there could be worse things than a hospital that wouldn't have otherwise existed being built by a religious organization. Some of them have the finest doctors and care in the world. If they throw some prayer in to go with it...so what? It doesn't hurt a thing...and not having the hospital would be much worse.
I am afraid that this is nothing more than the religious buying a right to force their religion on others. I welcome hospitals and colleges and youth movements but, as an atheist I want the religion taken out because it is false. Simple as that.

Quote:
You may not agree, but my advice to the Atheists, is to lighten up. Human nature is to fight back when you are challenged. Keep pushing and you will be WORSE off. Study basic military tactics...you never fight when you are completely outgunned, if you don't have to. You'll just end up wiped out. Working it covertly from the inside, is your best chance. That is my worry. I don't want religion taught in the public schools either. But the way the Atheists keep pushing it...they are assuring it...rather than the opposite. Maybe not in England, but in the U.S...if the religious get jacked enough...and want to fully organize and coordinate...they would be a undefeatable force that could sweep every election...take over the government...and pass whatever law they want...even change the Constitution. They always preached "turn the other cheek"...but they rarely followed their own advice. The chance of getting stung really bad is way worse if you are poking at the hornets nest...than if you stay back and just whack the individuals only if they are a problem. Chill out...you'll "live" longer. LOL.
When I want advice about how to win a war I will not get my battle plan from the opposing side. I think we are doing very nicely thank you. We are winning the arguments and we are becoming more vocal. Getting the clout to oust religious input from the science class and the history class and teaching comparitive religion in the religion class instead of pushing just the house - wine, is the next step. I don't fear a religious reaction. While they are fighting a percieved atheist threat, they will not be getting on with their other dodgy doings.

Of course, It's up to the US people how they handle their programme. I can only speak to the UK.
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