Thomas Jefferson_"No National Day Of Prayer" (America, myth, churches)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
A National Day of ANYTHING does not constitute the establishment of anything except a day to honor something (Secretary's Day, Monarch Butterfly Day, Blue Footed Booby Day . . . or whatever other nonsense the Congress deems to waste its time legislating.) That being said . . . the ESTABLISHMENT clause refers ONLY to the ESTABLISHMENT of a state RELIGION . . . NOT the ACKNOWLEDGMENT of a God. I understand and agree with the desire to separate the state and religions. I also agree that science should be taught in science classes . . . NOT religion. BUT the current push to remove any and all ACKNOWLEDGMENTS of a God from the public square is unsupported in the Constitution and is a gross misinterpretation of the ESTABLISHMENT clause, period.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-01-2010 at 02:04 PM..
A National Day of ANYTHING does not constitute the establishment of anything except a day to honor something (Secretary's Day, Monarch Butterfly Day, Blue Footed Booby Day . . . or whatever other nonsense the Congress deems to waste its time legislating.) That being said . . . the ESTABLISHMENT clause refers ONLY to the ESTABLISHMENT of a state RELIGION . . . NOT the ACKNOWLEDGMENT of a God. I understand and agree with the desire to separate the state and religions. I also agree that science should be taught in science classes . . . NOT religion. BUT the current push to remove any and all ACKNOWLEDGMENTS of a God from the public square is unsupported in the Constitution and is a gross misinterpretation of the ESTABLIHMENT clause, period.
Funny...although I'm not surprised. To me declaring some religious recognition day would closely resemble declaring a national Bill Clinton or George Bush day. Not only that we are at the beginning of the last days of religion...not just in the United States but in the world...todo el mundo.
LOL! Church and State...I'd say about six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Whatever Thomas Jefferson felt politically he felt twice as strong religiously. He was so anti new testament he wrote one of his own leaving out the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection:
Jefferson Bible
I obviously owe you a great debt of gratitude. Until reading your post, I had been totally unaware of the existence of the so called "Jefferson Bible." Next thing you know, you'll be informing me of some other astonishing news, such as the assassination of Abe Lincoln.
[quote=rifleman;15289421]Nope. It's Religion and Philosophy, frankly.
BTW, just so we know your official stance, tiget, would you be promoting mandatory school prayer, or would you have it that those not wanting to participate could leave the room or alternately endure blatant religious and social ostracization and humiliation from their fellow students by purposefully not bowing their heads during that rote-chanting session of The Lord's Prayer?
I can offer first hand what that does to a child who undergoes it.
Seems the secular intent of our Constitution is crystal-clear here. Christian, Muslim or Buddhist or Apache spirit-person studies and considerations will be held two doors down, second period. All who want to can spend their time in that classroom are more than welcome, but forcing it on everyone in home-room just because the Christian contingent fevently believes in it? Whoa there big fella!
Oh, and it certainly does NOT belong in the science classroom either. you know, because hey: it's NOT science. Sorta logical, right? I mean to push otherwise? That's just creepy!
I obviously owe you a great debt of gratitude. Until reading your post, I had been totally unaware of the existence of the so called "Jefferson Bible." Next thing you know, you'll be informing me of some other astonishing news, such as the assassination of Abe Lincoln.
Yeah...you ever heard of somebody "rubbing it in?"
I take great pleasure in the fact that the third president of the U S felt almost exactly the way I do. Virgin birth? Miracles? Resurrection? Give me a break!
Oh tiget... tiii geeeet... are you in there somewhere? You didn't answer the question. (Why is it that Christian acolytes can't do that one simple thing? Is it that easy to smell the "logical conundrum trap" that's set for them? Hmmm..)
So honestly, now, if you were really the King in Charge here, would you or would you not, have all of the school children bow their heads, close their eyes and, in full rote-chant mode, repeat the Lord's Prayer every morning. Like I had to up in Provincial Canada in the late '50s and early '60s.
Yeah...you ever heard of somebody "rubbing it in?"
I take great pleasure in the fact that the third president of the U S felt almost exactly the way I do. Virgin birth? Miracles? Resurrection? Give me a break!
You apparently miss or choose to ignore my overarching point. There's nothing for you to be "rubbing" in. Taken honestly and in total, Jefferson was not the person you lamely attempt to portray here. Either you are ignorant and prefer to remain so or you are purposely twisting the actual record in order to present your own view as having the added touch and appearance of Jeffersonian credibility. I'm personally inclined towards the latter.
Regarding the virgin birth, miracles and the resurrection, as the saying goes: "We're all entitled to our opinions." If you are able to coherently and cogently present a case as to why it would be unreasonable to consider the probability that these things actually did happen, well, I'm certainly willing to entertain the serious and honest skeptic. Close minded dogmatics need not apply.
You apparently miss or choose to ignore my overarching point. There's nothing for you to be "rubbing" in. Taken honestly and in total, Jefferson was not the person you lamely attempt to portray here. Either you are ignorant and prefer to remain so or you are purposely twisting the actual record in order to present your own view as having the added touch and appearance of Jeffersonian credibility. I'm personally inclined towards the latter.
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills" -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
"And the day will come when the mystical generation (conception) of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Regarding the virgin birth, miracles and the resurrection, as the saying goes: "We're all entitled to our opinions." If you are able to coherently and cogently present a case as to why it would be unreasonable to consider the probability that these things actually did happen, well, I'm certainly willing to entertain the serious and honest skeptic. Close minded dogmatics need not apply.
So we (and you) are not closed minded bigots for rejecting Mithras, Dionysus and the dozen other god-fathered, virgin birthed messiahs that preceded the Jesus version of the myth? It is only when we reject your equally absurd zombie lord that we become closed minded and bigots.
Not to mention that much of the supposedly accurate and inerrant bible "facts" were described long after many of the facts so represented supposedly occurred. Add in the hijacking off known and pre-recorded myths about ;arge-=scale floods and sea monsters and parting waters, and knowing as we do that time alone tilts the tables of reality and recollection, and that the prophets and writers obviously had an agenda, why would we then assume it all to be literally without error?
Add to this the contradictions about some rather easily observed facts, and the incongruity of some of it's romantic and charming but nonetheless totally implausible events, and what conclusions does the intellectually honest reader and critic come to? You know; the ones not hampered and harnessed by the requirement to believe no matter what the facts, as Jefferson so aptly notes?
The final killer touch is that, in fact, we can and have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt in the minds of thinking people...
√ the mechanisms of DNA-based Evolution
√ large-scale geological changes taking literally billions of years,
√ the ongoing evolution of the universe (despite the claim it was completed 6037.65 yrs ago, one afternoon...),
√ multiple ice ages covering millions of years,
√ the counted number of well over 30M species of organisms on this earth, with a conservative estimate of about 100+ M, (but hey: with no evolvin' allowed since Noah turfed them all off that leaking un-powered barge..)
All of this stands in stark comparison to old, unsupported and increasingly humorous fables which endure solely because without them, the entire primitive culture of organized religion crumbles like, well, Lot's salty wife.
But for this entirety, we should perhaps celebrate with a Federalized, mandated Day of Prayer? Why not one for the FSM then? Who could possibly object?
I know Jefferson surely would. It stands for literally the very tyranny of religion he fought to prevent.
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills" -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
"And the day will come when the mystical generation (conception) of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson
So we (and you) are not closed minded bigots for rejecting Mithras, Dionysus and the dozen other god-fathered, virgin birthed messiahs that preceded the Jesus version of the myth? It is only when we reject your equally absurd zombie lord that we become closed minded and bigots.
Interesting.
If we are "quote mining" Jefferson, try this: Thomas Jefferson:
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
IMHO, none of what Jefferson ever wrote should be what dictates anyway.
Easy to flaunt something your predecessors stole for you, rather than earned. THIS is what should be ruling as far as our Constitutional standard on the issue:
Religious Ceremonies Protected
99. The rites and festivals of each nation shall remain undisturbed and shall continue as before because they were given by the people of old times as useful and necessary for the good of men.
100. It shall be the duty of the Lords of each brotherhood to confer at the approach of the time of the Midwinter Thanksgiving and to notify their people of the approaching festival. They shall hold a council over the matter and arrange its details and begin the Thanksgiving five days after the moon of Dis-ko-nah is new. The people shall assemble at the appointed place and the nephews shall notify the people of the time and place. From the beginning to the end the Lords shall preside over the Thanksgiving and address the people from time to time.
101. It shall be the duty of the appointed managers of the Thanksgiving festivals to do all that is needed for carrying out the duties of the occasions. The recognized festivals of Thanksgiving shall be the Midwinter Thanksgiving, the Maple or Sugar-making Thanksgiving, the Raspberry Thanksgiving, the Strawberry Thanksgiving, the Cornplanting Thanksgiving, the Corn Hoeing Thanksgiving, the Little Festival of Green Corn, the Great Festival of Ripe Corn and the complete Thanksgiving for the Harvest. Each nation's festivals shall be held in their Long Houses.
102. When the Thanksgiving for the Green Corn comes the special managers, both the men and women, shall give it careful attention and do their duties properly.
103. When the Ripe Corn Thanksgiving is celebrated the Lords of the Nation must give it the same attention as they give to the Midwinter Thanksgiving.
104. Whenever any man proves himself by his good life and his knowledge of good things, naturally fitted as a teacher of good things, he shall be recognized by the Lords as a teacher of peace and religion and the people shall hear him.
And this:
7. Whenever the Confederate Lords shall assemble for the purpose of holding a council, the Onondaga Lords shall open it by expressing their gratitude to their cousin Lords and greeting them, and they shall make an address and offer thanks to the earth where men dwell, to the streams of water, the pools, the springs and the lakes, to the maize and the fruits, to the medicinal herbs and trees, to the forest trees for their usefulness, to the animals that serve as food and give their pelts for clothing, to the great winds and the lesser winds, to the Thunderers, to the Sun, the mighty warrior, to the moon, to the messengers of the Creator who reveal his wishes and to the Great Creator who dwells in the heavens above, who gives all the things useful to men, and who is the source and the ruler of health and life. Then shall the Onondaga Lords declare the council open.
That's what the REAL "Founding Fathers" of this nation had to say in the ORIGINAL Constitution. THAT should be "THE LAW"...and only through mans inhumanity to his fellow man, and a evil, selfish, quest for property and power, is it any other.
I will capitulate and accept "what is"--obtained and put in place through one off the greatest evils that ever occurred in the history of mankind...while never forgetting what "should be"...and in a perfected world, what "would be".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
