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Just look around and take in all the breathtaking beauty and tell there is no God....Watch a beautiful sunrise or sunset and tell me there is no God....Follow the changes of a mother's body as a baby grows inside her and tell me there is no God....Look at the intriicate workings of our bodies and tell me there is no God....tell me, tell me, tell me.....
There is a VERY DISTURBING trend I have seen occurring on this board lately...and it really bothers me.
Instead of debating something put forth by another...some are resorting to dishonesty. I'm not talking "twisty/wiggly"...I'm talking half-truths and even full out lies....in an attempt to discredit the poster, instead of debating the issue/subject.
As far as I am concerned...you can debate a premise or concept I have put forth, on it's merit...even say you think I am a fool for subscribing to it...but I will not accept the use of lies.
As an example of this I cite the quote above...this is a copy of what I ACTUALLY wrote back then...compare, and make your assessment as to the honesty of that quote:
I've really gotten into trying to figure out this Jesus/Bible/Christian thing. I'm captivated by it and I'm looking for answers. I find people that I talk to that are devoted to a particular genre of denominational Christianity are very bias toward the view of their church or denominational custom. While I understand that, I feel it results in a skewed position on the matter. Since I found this site and this thread I notice it contains positions from both sides from people who have obviously studied the matter in depth. I know that's what it really takes to come to a factual determination about anything. I am an Army veteran from the Cold War era. I served with the 522 Military Intelligence Battalion out of Fort Hood, TX. My military occupational specialty was 98C--Electronic Warfare Signal Intelligence Analyst. We were responsible for the collection, analyzation, and dissemination of the info about the location, disposition, and intentions of the Soviet nuclear military operation. We combed through the information gathered from all sources and analyzed it to come up with factual determinations and sent them to the National Security Agency. So I know full well that the more info you have from every possible source the better chance you have of figuring things out as to what the real deal is.
So here's my questions:
1. If the Bible and the individual books that comprise it are nothing but fiction and not actually written by the listed author(s), who actually wrote it/them? I mean, after all, it is the most widely distributed book of all time so there must have been an exhaustive search for the "ghost writers" (no pun intended to the "Holy Ghost" inspiration of the writing I have read about) that were the actual people that composed the writings, so at the very least they could be given credit for coming up with such a great philosophy.
2. Why is the very discussion of this subject so volatile? A lot of people have opinions on things, but never in my life (I'm 53 yrs old) have I ever discussed/debated a subject that got people so worked up. No matter what position they hold they seem steadfast to the point of being closed minded to any other viewpoint, and cop a major attitude if you even give the appearance of disagreeing...and if you put forth a direct challenge of their views, you better put your guard up!
3. What of all the most exalted critical thinkers, and all time Grand Masters of deductive reasoning, seemingly coming to the same or similar conclusions on the subject? I will admit that I don't have all the answers. That's why I'm searching. There are many though, that I hold in the highest regard based on their reputation for being the all time leaders in their ability to think critically and figure things out through an intellectual analysis...and I'm very curious as to why they all seem to come to a similar factual determination. And I'm not just talking about someone of superior intelligence to me "believing" something, so that makes it a fact. I don't, nor have I ever, thought that to be logical. In my view it's not a matter of these mental champions coming to a "belief" about something, but these men coming to a "determination of fact" about something. When a group of men, not only more intelligent than me, but considered to be the most intelligent of all time, consider the matter, and do an individual critical analysis and intellectual critique, and then every one of them come to nearly the same conclusion, that holds a lot of weight with me, so much so that I am inclined to see it as settled. I see it this way:: If I need a fast runner I'll turn to Jessie Owens and Usain Bolt, if I need to know about cooking food I'll turn to Julia Childs, if I need to know about drag racing a car I'll turn to John Force, if I need to know about hitting a baseball I'll turn to Ted Williams, if I need to know about composing music I'll turn to Bach and Mozart...and if I need an intellectual analysis or investigation about some "force" or "power" that exists in this universe I'll turn to Newton and Einstein. What say all of you about this? Does this consensus of all time greatest minds have the credence I've given it?
4. Let's just say Jesus DIDN'T ever exist. Then how have so many educated, knowledgeable, insightful people throughout history and even at this present time become convinced he did? How do you "snow" so many billions of people (to the point where they are on their knees with their hands clasped in front of them, looking up and speaking to this fictional character) for so long?
Actually, I'm surprised at you guys. I know you can be "wiseguys"...MOF nobody admires your "snarky wit" more than me, and I've said so on many occasions....but I never figured you would resort to lies to try to discredit a poster. Sarcastic is one thing...dishonest is a whole other story. I will not accept lies/liars...Cut it out!!
That is agonizing to see. But God didn't do that...and it's not for God to correct.
WE have the ability to fix that. That child is in that condition while we type on our computers, many of us in our comfy houses probably less than 20 steps from refrigerators-cabinets-pantries-and drawers FULL of food, cars parked outside, and a box full of jewelry on the dresser packed full of fancy clothes in our bedrooms.
We must show compassion and donate to help. We don't even need to give of our own sustinance...just from our abundance. I'll not sleep well tonight after seeing that picture...but that's a good thing...it will motivate me to do more. So, thank-you.
That is agonizing to see. But God didn't do that...and it's not for God to correct.
WE have the ability to fix that. That child is in that condition while we type on our computers, many of us in our comfy houses probably less than 20 steps from refrigerators-cabinets-pantries-and drawers FULL of food, cars parked outside, and a box full of jewelry on the dresser packed full of fancy clothes in our bedrooms.
We must show compassion and donate to help. We don't even need to give of our own sustinance...just from our abundance. I'll not sleep well tonight after seeing that picture...but that's a good thing...it will motivate me to do more. So, thank-you.
True.
But what I see happening a lot is that although we have the ability to fix these things and we do (including curing illnesses and diseases), is that then the credit will be given to god.
Good things = God
Bad things = Our fault
I say good/bad = man.
I agree with your point...it's up to us. I think the poster you quoted was trying to point out that it's commonly said that god is in control and god has a plan.
True.
But what I see happening a lot is that although we have the ability to fix these things and we do (including curing illnesses and diseases), is that then the credit will be given to god.
I agree with your point...it's up to us. I think the poster you quoted was trying to point out that it's commonly said that god is in control and god has a plan.
And then also, why pray?
The ONLY connection we have with God while we are here is through our consciousnesses. It is through that spiritual channel that God effects what WE do or do not do. All the physical or carnal concerns about this world are in our hands . . . like it or not.
That is agonizing to see. But God didn't do that...and it's not for God to correct.
WE have the ability to fix that. That child is in that condition while we type on our computers, many of us in our comfy houses probably less than 20 steps from refrigerators-cabinets-pantries-and drawers FULL of food, cars parked outside, and a box full of jewelry on the dresser packed full of fancy clothes in our bedrooms.
We must show compassion and donate to help. We don't even need to give of our own sustinance...just from our abundance. I'll not sleep well tonight after seeing that picture...but that's a good thing...it will motivate me to do more. So, thank-you.
Christians pray for things like finding the perfect house, getting a raise, or having a healthy baby. When this happens, they say God answered their prayers. When these things do not come about, they say, "It was God's will not to".
How loud do you think the cries and prayers are of those people who are starving and suffering? God doesn't answer their prayers so is it God's will to let them starve?
As far as I am concerned...you can debate a premise or concept I have put forth, on it's merit...even say you think I am a fool for subscribing to it...but I will not accept the use of lies.
Give me the link to the thread that we were discussing at the time and I'll try to find what I was referring to.
Post #762: "His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."), Lev Tolstoy, Napoleon Bonaparte, Will Durant, Daniel Webster, David Strauss, Kenneth Scott Lattourette, George Bancroft, Lew Wallace, even MOHAMMED! The greatest applicants of every genre of critical thinking and reasoning...physics, math, philosophy, history, politics, military tactics, you name it...nearly ALL conclude Jesus was a real person. Along with MANY others not listed. You expect me to give what any of YOU think more credence than those mental superstars? Yeah, right! It's obvious some of you suffer from delusions of mental grandeur, but I submit none of you will ever convince me or anybody else that you can think, reason, and analyze on even a small fraction of the level of the least of those men. Many of the finest EXPERT thinkers OF ALL TIME proclaim Jesus as having existed as a person---This alone, is PROOF to anyone that isn't self deluded."
Post # 758:"To any logical thinking, reasonable person, the "Jesus Case" doesn't need but a second of deliberation to make the determination, that not only is it beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus did, in fact, exist, it can be reasonably determined beyond ALL doubt. Unless one could actually believe many of the highest thinking people, possessing the keenest minds, over the past 2000 yrs could be completely and totally put over by nothing but bull***t--- which I submit would be much less of a chance than that Jesus Christ is nothing but a myth---there is no other conclusion that can be drawn."
Post# 764
"When thinkers of the caliber of Newton, Einstein, DaVinci, and Mohammed ALL concur on something it is rendered essentially irrefutable...and I submit, without reservation, anyone that would even attempt to dispute it would show themself to be either, as big a blowhole dupe as any to hit the planet, or "not all there". Those men are the epitome of EXPERT thinkers. The premier geniuses OF ALL TIME. How they come to their conclusions is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond me (and 99.9999999999% of everyone else that ever lived) so any attempt I would make to try to figure out how they did it would be as futile as if I tried to comprehend the workings of a mind so enlightened that it could come up with The Theory of Relativity.
Bottom line: The question, "Did Jesus Ever Exist?", has been considered by the worlds preeminent minds, and the answer is, "YES"."
As people can see if they care to read the thread from post#758 on, throughout the discussion you were using the appeal to authority argument that if intelligent people or enough people believe something, it must be true.
That's because you are a member of a 'blood cult'.
LOL! I want to suck you're blood!
I haven't ever heard that before.But you could be right.
Another option is that when I see the cross I see the one who has no sin taking all the punishment that my sin deserves and thereby realise that I am as free as a birdy!
But the blood cult comment is definitely more funny.
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