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Old 08-07-2010, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,798,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
A request has been sent to my former church for a refund of all collection plate donations on the basis of false pretenses.
As soon as it is received I'll send you that check.
Excellent! In the meantime, to avoid getting 'tumped' by the JWs again, you might consider purchasing one of these whilst stocks last, from our online atheist store.

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Old 08-07-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,155 posts, read 26,065,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Excellent! In the meantime, to avoid getting 'tumped' by the JWs again, you might consider purchasing one of these whilst stocks last, from our online atheist store.
Oh, you're bad!!!
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:07 PM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,419,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
The JWs do not bother me anymore than any other theist.
Basically all the same, just different minituae to disagree with.

The basic point still is what would the explanation be for any so-called loving god to allow for the pain and suffering of animals
My door knockers solution was that they don't suffer, letting god off the hook.

Haven't yet read a better one yet that lets god keep the description of loving.
I'm surprised that your resident JW didn't mention Satan or the evil done by humans as a reason for animal suffering. According to JW's, all suffering on this Earth is the result of a) human sin, starting with Adam and Eve b) the influence of Satan.

Human sin:

Quote:
God hates wickedness and the suffering it causes far more than any human does. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)
Quote:
Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)
Satan:

Quote:
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
Quote:
[Satan is] misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Why Does God Allow Suffering? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,155 posts, read 26,065,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
I'm surprised that your resident JW didn't mention Satan or the evil done by humans as a reason for animal suffering. According to JW's, all suffering on this Earth is the result of a) human sin, starting with Adam and Eve b) the influence of Satan.

They started off with that one
If you read my first post, you'll see that is covered.
But the main criteria is that no human would witness the animal suffering therefore man would in no way suffer for it's suffering so that one wouldn't wash.
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Old 08-07-2010, 08:41 PM
 
312 posts, read 865,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Since mostly we only get evasive answers to most questions, guess I shouldn't be disappointed that there haven't been any from the apologists to this one
I said it was a stretch but at least it was imaginative.

Since man wasn't there to suffer from having to witness, maybe God has it arranged so that the animal doesn't feel pain or suffer.

You have to admit, I can't prove that one otherwise.
But you can't disprove it either, can you? It is a plausible argument. God can do anything... Whether you believe that or not is really the question, isn't it? Not all things are as they seem and with God all things are possible.

So the answer makes sense really...
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,495 posts, read 36,994,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiJay View Post
But you can't disprove it either, can you? It is a plausible argument. God can do anything... Whether you believe that or not is really the question, isn't it? Not all things are as they seem and with God all things are possible.

So the answer makes sense really...
Only if there is a god and we are merely his playthings...Many of us do not believe there is.
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:22 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,419,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
They started off with that one
If you read my first post, you'll see that is covered.
But the main criteria is that no human would witness the animal suffering therefore man would in no way suffer for it's suffering so that one wouldn't wash.
Sorry, must have missed your post. I don't see why a human bearing witness would affect the argument, though. Suffering is still suffering.
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,155 posts, read 26,065,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
Sorry, must have missed your post. I don't see why a human bearing witness would affect the argument, though. Suffering is still suffering.
There are several acceptable arguments (among believers) as to why man has to suffer.
The ordinary human would feel sympathy or empathy(suffer) to witness an animal in pain.
If no human is present to witness, there is no apparent acceptable reason for God to inflict such on an animal.
I asked for one.
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:16 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,502,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiJay View Post
But you can't disprove it either, can you? It is a plausible argument. God can do anything... Whether you believe that or not is really the question, isn't it? Not all things are as they seem and with God all things are possible.

So the answer makes sense really...
As sans said, only if you believe God. Thus, while the explanation that animals suffer for an example is at least an explanation, though rather poor as we know animals suffer pointlessly even without humans knowing anything about it, the explanation that it happens through chance, as it is called - the same way everything else (where not planned by humans) happens by chance is the best and most credible explanation. Why isn't it even considered?

The thing with theist apologetics is that it so often fails to look at the Big Picture (It says it does, but they just mean by that 'Look at it all from the view of Faith'). One can come up with explanations and any explanation will do, even putting the problem out of mind and supposing God has some good reason.

But the whole thing is a myriad of problems doubts and implausibilities with all together make a big picture that looks as cockeyed as a Picasso portrait. When I say 'It doesn't stack up' I am not trying to pre- empt the conclusion; I'm saying that the Big Picture does not carry anything like enough weight to make god - belief a sound belief.

In the end it does come down to Faith. Theists know this and they exalt Faith as a better way of coming to conclusions than evidence. At the same time, they use faith to give undue weight to explanations that are far less likely but which must be true as they 'know' it's all true anyway.

This is the fons et origo of the big circular argument of theism. And that's to be polite.
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,093,809 times
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DiJay: If your god can do anythihing, why doesn't he? And you know as well as I do that it is virtually impossible to prove a negative. It is your burden to prove the positive. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. You can of course believe whatever you like. That's faith.
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