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Old 08-08-2010, 08:25 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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I would agree people who leave atheism don't usually see it as an escape or liberation, in the sense you mean, with the exception of those whose atheism was part of an overarching ideology. For example I think some atheist members of a Communist party saw conversion as "an escape" and I think the one former-atheist I know of who was in "The LaRouche Movement" may have also deemed abandoning atheism to be an escape. Atheism itself though is an absence, not a presence, so "escape" is probably not the right word.

Religion to a large degree is about connection. Even for a religious hermit there is the connection to God or Nature in the case of Taoist hermits. It's often a longing for things like meaning, community, and truth. (And before anyone snarks at me I'm not saying atheists can't have community or lack any truth in their life.) My perspective coming from a conservative kind of Catholicism, even though I'm actually pretty independent minded, I would say an overemphasis on liberation or escape is not always a good thing. It can be anarchic, nihilist, and/or selfish.

That being said it's hard to make a generalization of people who abandon atheism as they do so for many reasons. For some it's almost purely intellectual. They feel a religion offers them answers that irreligion just can't. In other cases it's mostly emotional. They were unhappy as atheists and find religion more pleasant. Although it doesn't refer to atheism in specific the Pew (again named for a person not a religious object) Research Center had a study on people who enter and leave "the unaffiliated." Reasons for leaving the unaffiliated seem to be "spiritual needs not being met", "found a religion they liked more", and "married into a religion." Main reasons the previously unaffiliated joined a specific church appear to be "Enjoy the religious service or style", "Felt called by God", "attracted by a particular minister or pastor" and "asked to join." So probably emotional reasons predominate, particularly liking a faith community or its leader seems popular as well as divine calling.

Entering and Leaving the Ranks of the Unaffiliated: Faith in Flux - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:47 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,712,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
After all that, go notice that I did say ,albeit without the religion they abandoned

You say"I can only suppose that you have not experienced deconversion yourself "
CHristened Catholic, baptised Baptist,church twice on Sunday, choir practice on Wednesdays and church camp 3 summers in my teens and having the courage(it took some) to deny it all and declare atheism later on......is that deconversion?
I was lucky ...the church and its members were cheerful,low key,encouraged questioning during bible study, mostly witnessed by example....a very fine group of people.
I have no bitterness or anger......just no belief.
That's deconversion. I did note from other posts that you didn't sound theist, so I was puzzled.
Ok, I disagreed with your suggestion that it was some bitterness with the church that led to many deconversion. So I set out my researches to show that isn't the case with the deconversion of those who appear to be bitter, even if you are not.

I must say that the Church I was pushed at un my youth was not too heavy - handed, but even in the rather untheist UK, there is still enough of a tacit assumption that a sorta census - christianity is a good thing to have and an ongoing drip.. drip...drip.. of this little miracle, that lauging off of a lightnig - strike on a cathedral, a programme about the historic truth of the gospels, the packing of the House of Lords with a bunch of churchmen to influence politics to suit religion, herberts in the street shoving evangelical tracts at me unasked. By the cringe..it makes ME angry, if not you.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:58 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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I suppose that would be a difference. In the US we don't have a "House of Lords" and bishops pretty much never end up in Congress. Some reverends and preachers do, but they have to be elected whereas I seem to recall the House of Lords don't all have to be elected. Is that correct?
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,173 posts, read 26,194,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
the packing of the House of Lords with a bunch of churchmen to influence politics to suit religion, herberts in the street shoving evangelical tracts at me unasked. By the cringe..it makes ME angry, if not you.
Oh yes, there are many things about religion that make me angry, such as it's influence on politics and law.
But that kind of anger had nothing to do with my leaving.

The current thread on Ann Rice rather demonstrates my point and I do have to wonder how many people that are also that angry with religion will eventually , as she actually already has done, once the anger has subsided, embrace God but leave organized religion behind.

IOW, for a certain bitter segment of professed atheists, I have doubts about their convinction
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:24 AM
 
454 posts, read 498,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
is it that when it comes to leaving religion, those who have left it behind consider it an 'escape' (like I did/do)? It truly conveys the idea of a digging out of jail or something. I don't often hear the same word when it comes to those who claim they have left an atheistic position (I am NOT speaking of those who grew up in or around religion) and became religious.
Jesus told his followers that they must bear their cross. The cross one bears is belief in Christ as Lord and Saviour. When we are fully annointed this burden is light and joyful. When we lose that annointing, due to sloth or disobedience of some kind, the burden becomes heavy and cumbersome. To no longer acknowledge Jesus as the Christ is to put down one's cross. To do so makes one feel free in the sense that they are liberated to the world again.
There is nothing more important for a believer than a solid grounding in the Scriptures. Here are some verses which point to this issue:

Psalm 2:1-4
[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Ecclesaistes 10:18
By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands the house droppeth through.

When we come to the Lord in worship, praise and prayer we receive annointing:

Matthew 11:28-30
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Those who have gone astray may always return. Fasting and prayer may assist:

Hosea 6:1,2
[1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
[2] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

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Old 08-09-2010, 10:38 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,737,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
is it that when it comes to leaving religion, those who have left it behind consider it an 'escape' (like I did/do)? It truly conveys the idea of a digging out of jail or something. I don't often hear the same word when it comes to those who claim they have left an atheistic position (I am NOT speaking of those who grew up in or around religion) and became religious.
Because religion is a form of mind control, behavior control, and oftentimes a political control. For some, it is like breaking free of the Borg collective, or the battery factory in the Matrix (sorry )...yes, it's unsettling at first, not having your life spelled out for you, but you learn to adapt. One of my friends is ex-Amish, and for her it was a true escape to freedom, even at the expense of losing her family.

What is more unsettling is how the deconversion of a single member can so profoundly derail and energize the rest of the religious 'collective'--they will go, in many cases, to extreme lengths to 'win back' the 'lost' one...or, in the case of sharia, kill them. Even a single act of dissention is a threat to the group, because it names the elephant in the room: the possibility of it all being false and a supreme waste of time, intellect, and money.

Escape is an apt term for those whose minds and hearts cannot exist in a vacuum. Break free--or implode...
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 8,003,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
Because religion is a form of mind control, behavior control, and oftentimes a political control. For some, it is like breaking free of the Borg collective, or the battery factory in the Matrix (sorry )...yes, it's unsettling at first, not having your life spelled out for you, but you learn to adapt. One of my friends is ex-Amish, and for her it was a true escape to freedom, even at the expense of losing her family.

What is more unsettling is how the deconversion of a single member can so profoundly derail and energize the rest of the religious 'collective'--they will go, in many cases, to extreme lengths to 'win back' the 'lost' one...or, in the case of sharia, kill them. Even a single act of dissention is a threat to the group, because it names the elephant in the room: the possibility of it all being false and a supreme waste of time, intellect, and money.

Escape is an apt term for those whose minds and hearts cannot exist in a vacuum. Break free--or implode...
I really love how you made your point.
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,536 posts, read 37,136,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
Because religion is a form of mind control, behavior control, and oftentimes a political control. For some, it is like breaking free of the Borg collective, or the battery factory in the Matrix (sorry )...yes, it's unsettling at first, not having your life spelled out for you, but you learn to adapt. One of my friends is ex-Amish, and for her it was a true escape to freedom, even at the expense of losing her family.

What is more unsettling is how the deconversion of a single member can so profoundly derail and energize the rest of the religious 'collective'--they will go, in many cases, to extreme lengths to 'win back' the 'lost' one...or, in the case of sharia, kill them. Even a single act of dissention is a threat to the group, because it names the elephant in the room: the possibility of it all being false and a supreme waste of time, intellect, and money.

Escape is an apt term for those whose minds and hearts cannot exist in a vacuum. Break free--or implode...
I have never seen escape from the crushing dogma of belief explained so well...
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:58 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,712,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I suppose that would be a difference. In the US we don't have a "House of Lords" and bishops pretty much never end up in Congress. Some reverends and preachers do, but they have to be elected whereas I seem to recall the House of Lords don't all have to be elected. Is that correct?
Correct. In fact some don't want the Lords there at all since no -one voted for them but others see them as a counter to the Elected Commons. As an atheist of course, I dislike a bunch of unelected churchment being able to influence Legislation in the interests of a religion in which I do not believe. However, I can't deny that believers would consider that God should have a few votes in the Lords.
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,712,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Oh yes, there are many things about religion that make me angry, such as it's influence on politics and law.
But that kind of anger had nothing to do with my leaving.

The current thread on Ann Rice rather demonstrates my point and I do have to wonder how many people that are also that angry with religion will eventually , as she actually already has done, once the anger has subsided, embrace God but leave organized religion behind.

IOW, for a certain bitter segment of professed atheists, I have doubts about their convinction
You may have a point. Yes, it could be that some really have just got angry about it and rejected it without really having thought about it. As it happens, in all the deconversion stories I have read - and I have read quite a few - it is doubt, rather than anger or bitterness, that has led to deconversion.

However, for those who have just got angry, while they are in rejection mode, let us make sure they are exposed to the very cogent and sound reasons why religion does not make sense. And, when they have cooled off, they will see no sensible reason for going back.
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