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Old 08-17-2010, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Of course "everything" wasn't written down but people performing amazing miracles WOULD have been written about and recorded somewhere. Of THAT there can be no doubt.

There is no historical Jesus at the core of the Gospels. From what I have researched, the Gospels are fabricated, consisting of scripture, legends, bits of oral tradition, anecdotes, stories, and mystical beliefs of existing Jewish cults. There also appears to be no evidence of a belief in an historical Jesus that effected Christianity as a whole until near the end of the second century. Until then, Christians expressed a belief in a spiritual Son of God, influenced more by the theological groundwork laid down by Philo, which pre-dated the supposed time of a Jesus ministry. The mythical view seems also to fit in well with the historical record, or rather the lack of historical record as the case may be since no one wrote of a Jesus during his supposed lifetime.


So we can safety throw the Bible out of the window then....as it can be relied upon for accuracy?

Because "multitudes" of people gathering to hear a miracle-man speak would have caused interest. What about the time this Jesus entered Jerusalem and "the whole city" turned out to greet him, yet no-one but the Gospel authors appear to have noticed this event. There is no independent contemporary historian around the age of the supposed time of Jesus that even mentions the man. The very few references to a Christ by Josephus are considered to be forgeries added much later in time by Eusebius. The many similarities between the Jesus tale and other man-god characters make it very likely it was just another of the many god-myths that came along at that time.

Your claim that only those who followed Jesus had any interest in the events is preposterous.

...or maybe it's all BS. There is not one proof - not one - that Jesus was more historical than, say, Hercules or Apollo. The authors of the four canonical gospels are anonymous. Where is the proof that they provide serious and historically reliable testimony? There is none! That Matthew, Mark and Luke tell more or less the same story about Jesus proves nothing about their historical credibility. Why should they not have made it all up?

The "you people" who who, when their claims are challenged, immediately refer to the challenger as 'close minded' or 'not wanting to learn' or 'just wanting to bash Christianity.'
Oh.

Well, I made no claims whatsoever, and didn't refer to anyone as close-minded on this thread. I guess I have to do those things to become a you-people. You ARE bashing Christianity. That's the whole point of your thread. That's OK. Go with it. Freedom of speech. And it might not be that you don't want to learn. I saw this show on TV last night where they were trying to figure out why some people are geniuses and most of us are not. They figured it was genetic, and so they did an experiment where they raised a mouse with a learning gene altered that's very primal, just about identical in all species and hasn't changed over the course of evolution. They altered the gene of the mouse, and sure enough, it couldn't learn.

But I'm glad you could use my post to get your thoughts out there. Not that you said anything that hasn't been said before. It's a matter of belief. Can't be proven by evidence. That's sort of the definition of what a mystery religion is.

As for the Matthew, Mark and Luke story not proving everything even though they all tell the same story, I agree. Scholars believe there was an original document from which all three of those descended. It's called the Q gospel. Forget what the Q stands for.

One issue I have with the possibility that the story was just made up as a tale of fiction to tell on long nights hanging out with the shepherds and no Internet or radio, whether or not one believes the supernatural aspects of the story, is that in the resurrection story, three women go to the tomb and find it empty. All three women are named Mary. Well, actually Miriam since they were Jews and the name hadn't yet been Anglicized. Who the hell writes a story and gives three characters in one scene the same name?

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 08-17-2010 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why are the myriad versions so similar in structure and message?
Because people are ignorant.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:37 AM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,233,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Don't you ever wonder, even a little bit, why there is no written record of all the things Jesus did and the miracles that occured while he was alive by not even one of his followers or any other contemporary?
Why it was 40/50 years before these things were written....and even then, not by anyone that actually knew him.
It is not as if there is not volumnious writings about other things from...and before...that era.
Doesn't it bother you at all?

That is all based on the assumption that all writtings have been found, and that none of them speak about Jesus and what he did..or will do.
Just because they do not have any writtings...does not mean that it was not written...or did not take place!

Don't forget this world went through a time of purging/cleanzing...and they burnt alot of books to hide some things from being known!

Also...in the Tomb of the family of Christ Jesus (supposedly) there are many manuscripts burried in that tomb...which has been sealed again.
When it was openned, a team of some tv show went in and looked around for proof...one manuscript was said to be the story of Jonah and the whale...one of Jesus Christ's favorite stories...(once said) You shall only see this sign of Jonah....when asked about the signs of the coming of God.

And so the whales are beaching...and other signs are showing up to.

I wonder what the message was to the churches...that we do not have to read today????

It is not that it is not written...it is because these things either decayed in a cave or underground, where they were burried to hide them from distruction....or they were hidden by the powers that be, so they could pencil in what ever they wanted everyone to believe in.,,while being supported by the people, and in keeping the IDOLIC demigod in place, but hidden behind the scenes.....there is always the truth....and you cannot hide the truth...nor can it be destroyed or changed into something else........cause it says anyone who changes the truth or any of the words, or adds to them...is gona pay dearly for their crimes.

Some books removed from the Holy Bible?....why?...to decieve those trying to follow the instructions!
Some things added in that make contradictions in the Bibles messages...about Money or IDOLS...and their use.
And exactly why they put this tale of the three slaves and the denari is to mislead....
Although God said to multiply the givens...we also see God Share everything for free...."I Give you everything" Genesis 9:3 and to tend and keep the Garden Genesis 2:15....and to restore ACTs 3:21 what was taken in disobediance...must be put back sinlessly....to undo, to reverse..the curse of death with God.

So when that is fulfilled...REV 17:17 then God will Judge the world....and evil and sin will be no more!

That is what I get out of it all....God is tied to Nature and living things...he is not a God of dead things..and he is a living thing...and he asks us to help him in his garden....
Where do you see we went wrong?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$..it is turning this planet into a Garbage bin, and toxic biohazard!
Kinda the opposite agenda to tend and keep....eh?...anti Christ...anti EDEN....and anti God...is before us....as us not doing what God asked we do....funny how that is eh?

So even what is written....it is not done!
So why do you need the missing pieces or words, if you cannot follow what is right before you?

Think about it.

Last edited by Sir Les; 08-19-2010 at 10:02 AM..
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Les View Post
That is all based on the assumption that all writtings have been found, and that none of them speak about Jesus and what he did..or will do.


Don't forget this world went through a time of purging/cleanzing...and they burnt alot of books to hide some things from being known!
Which could also mean that there was loads of stuff written that showed that the Jesus character was not what the Bible claimed he was....but it was all destroyed by the early Church to cover up the scam.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Colorado
9,986 posts, read 18,644,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Which could also mean that there was loads of stuff written that showed that the Jesus character was not what the Bible claimed he was....but it was all destroyed by the early Church to cover up the scam.
I would love to get into the archives in the Vatican, can you imagine!! There is a reason they allow no one there and it is so heavily guarded. They know, but if it was released they lose their power.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I would love to get into the archives in the Vatican, can you imagine!! There is a reason they allow no one there and it is so heavily guarded. They know, but if it was released they lose their power.
Well you could go here....

Preamble (http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1_doc.htm - broken link)

...then look on the list on the left hand side of the page headed "Famous Personages". Apparently, Jesus wasn't 'famous' enough to get a mention though Michelangelo was!! Yeah, I know the archives start from the 12th century but still, you'd think that if there was anything it would be there huh?
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:36 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,576,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
..As for the Matthew, Mark and Luke story not proving everything even though they all tell the same story, I agree. Scholars believe there was an original document from which all three of those descended. It's called the Q gospel. Forget what the Q stands for.
Quelle (german 'source'). In fact it is not (unless the term has been applied to what I call 'proto - Matthew') the ur - text of the synoptics, but is supposed to be a 'source' (oral or possibly written) of material common to Luke and Matthew but not to Mark.

Quote:
One issue I have with the possibility that the story was just made up as a tale of fiction to tell on long nights hanging out with the shepherds and no Internet or radio, whether or not one believes the supernatural aspects of the story, is that in the resurrection story, three women go to the tomb and find it empty. All three women are named Mary. Well, actually Miriam since they were Jews and the name hadn't yet been Anglicized. Who the hell writes a story and gives three characters in one scene the same name?
That is actually a valid point. If the story is just made up, what point is there in having two women (Mary mother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene - I don't buy a 'third' Mary- as you say, 'Miriam') go to the tomb? I suppose one could say it was 'independent witnesses' bearing in mind that the disciples might have removed the body and had a reason to conceal the facts (1).

However, I can't shake the idea that it could simply be what happened, since all four gospels at least report that the two women went to the tomb and found it open.

After that, the stories are so discrepant as to be worthless as evidence.

(1) Matthew 28.12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:25 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,504,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Don't you ever wonder, even a little bit, why there is no written record of all the things Jesus did and the miracles that occured while he was alive by not even one of his followers or any other contemporary?
Why it was 40/50 years before these things were written....and even then, not by anyone that actually knew him.
It is not as if there is not volumnious writings about other things from...and before...that era.
Doesn't it bother you at all?
I don't see why it would. As I recall the records we have of Boadicea, who led a notable revolt against Rome and sacked early London, are fairly meager and I seem to recall they are somewhat contradictory. (Although Tacitus was possibly an eye witness so that's a bit more than I thought) A Messiah-claimant, from a lower-class background who doesn't sack anything, would understandably be of less interest. Particularly as Jews, after a point anyway, believed a Messiah claimant would lead a nation on Earth or try to. So Bar Kokhba (sp?) would be of more interest to them.

If someone said their religion's founder was a member of the gentry in 18th century Britain, and we find nothing written of him until the nineteenth century, that might be pretty weird. This not so much.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I don't see why it would. As I recall the records we have of Boadicea, who led a notable revolt against Rome and sacked early London, are fairly meager .......
Boadicea didn't walk on water, raise the dead, heal the sick or perform other amazing miracles.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,161 posts, read 26,118,923 times
Reputation: 27898
'fairly meager' does not equal nonexistent
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