The Miracle of Fatima, every atheists nightmare. (Muslim, quote, Mary)

[TRANSPONDER]

All I can say, Christian catholic is. Read The Post.

Lucia was a deeply religious person. Probably the Church didn't need to push her very much, but the assuredly took her in hand and made sure the miracles said just what they wanted. Your news photo shows nothing more that a bunch of a thousand people standing in the rain waiting for a miracle. It is a sad sight. This is not the first one and won't be the last Knock was a crock and Medigorjie has been widely discredited. A consideration of all the input shows that Fatima is no better and anything seen by anyone but our principal visionary is quite a natural phenomenon blown up out of all proportion.

Whatever those people who claimed to have seen various somethings miles away actually saw, it was not the sun doing anything unusual. Because no-one without a religious axe to grind saw anything unusual whatsoever.

I can well understand that you would overdo the miracle of the drying clothes. I remember reading about that and it was overdone as the ludicrously oversensational newspaper report of what was no more than retina images.

I'm glad this thread is open and I urge all - believers and non, alike - to look up the facts and see that this is a not uncommon example of a delusionary molehill turned into a theological massif.

I am disinclined to comment on your anecdotal personal miracle.

[mythunderstood]

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

That is the one miracle that most atheists tend to stay away from because in the end it will cause them to doubt their disbelief. It has been one of the most studied and verifiable miracles of our time.Plus it happenned in the 20th century.
If you dont believe me just ask O'Seculo's editor and chief who was a hardcore anti-religion atheist. Notice I said before the miracle.
Ive studied it completely but im sure most atheists and christians havent.

I don't have "faith" in my non-belief, so there is nothing to "doubt." I do doubt the stories that religionists put forth about their gods, which is why I lack belief in the first place.

[lifertexan]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

I am disinclined to comment on your anecdotal personal miracle.

The most obvious question would be why then does any good person get murdered,raped,etc if God sends saints to save them.Why do innocent children get kidnapped,molested,then murdered?


I went to church with a guy that was convinced he had been cure from a type of cancer.He was Eastern Orthodox and believed it had occurred during his baptism. ( Orthodox dunk in water like Baptists,but dunk you 3 times).Previous to his baptism he had this cancer, and a heart condition that had required surgeries and such.Within 2 years of my meeting him he had died from his heart condition.So somehow he was supposedly healed of cancer but was not healed of his lifelong heart problems and died from it in middle age.

Go figure.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. Those are always tricky. Those miracles where I have been able to check don't look anything like as miraculous as when related by the Believer. You simply cannot allow yourself to say 'Ah, so a platoon of angels blessed your weetabix and you never suffered from backache again I am convinced. Please let me know your Denomination."

I am looking at this rain thing. Some reports say that it was a steady but not heavy rain which stopped. Others say the people were soaked and ankle - deep in mud. The feelings of warmth are hardly to be trusted as a lot of bods experiencing what they believe is a communal religious experience is likely to produce all sorts of sensations. There are also some claims that are clearly overdrawn, such as the sun seen..."Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificient firewheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light producing the most astounding effect." (Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)
According to the newspaper Seculo, "the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law - the sun danced." Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: "The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible."

Apart from the description of two different sights, this is just not borne out by other reports. Some people were evidently carried away by the moment or exaggerated their tale to get reported. Whatever reason, it is not true. In view of the string of very doubtful claims, I can hardly be expected to take the miracle of the drying clothes at face value.

[Voyageur]

...atheists tend to be infinitely more concerned about real-world issues such as attempts to undermine science (namely biology, but almost every other science on occasion) when it conflicts with ancients myths, religious-rooted discrimination (such as opposite-sex-only marriages) and religious-borne terrorism (09/11, murdering doctors, bombing the Olympics, etc.) than a what a bunch of people claim to have seen nine decades ago.

[cruxan]

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

That is the one miracle that most atheists tend to stay away from because in the end it will cause them to doubt their disbelief. It has been one of the most studied and verifiable miracles of our time.Plus it happenned in the 20th century.
If you dont believe me just ask O'Seculo's editor and chief who was a hardcore anti-religion atheist. Notice I said before the miracle.
Ive studied it completely but im sure most atheists and christians havent.

millions of sheeples have seen ufos do you believe them

where is the proof of the little green men???

to bad they didn't have video cameras in 1917 reading all that stuff is not proof, it's no different then reading the bible.??? where's the proof, show me proof, not words..

[mgt04]

As an atheist, the only thing about religion that scares me is the day my life is in danger from one of you misguided fools killing people in the name of your gods.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

The ufo event is highly unlikely unless little green men from mars decided to play a practical joke on everyone

How can I put this?

First, let's assume that aliens are real. Let's also assume that aliens are more advanced than us (spiritually and technologically). Let's also assume that they (aliens) have been visiting Earth for over one million years now. One more thing, these "aliens" look human too (not green).

If all of the above were true, what type of stories would people (2,000 years ago) write about such superior beings that always come down from the sky?

Genesis 6:1

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose. Then the Lord said: My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years. At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.

"Sons of God" having sexual intercourse with the "daughters of man"? What could it mean? It means that "Jesus" was NOT the only "son of God" that came down in the flesh. It means that sexual intercourse was needed for the "son's of God" to place "God's spirit" (and image) upon man. It means that we are dealing with physical beings here (not spirits).

So I ask you, what type of physical beings come down from the sky in "fiery chariots"?

Kings 2:11

As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

God is supposedly a living being (an eternal one at that)
God created the Earth (which means he is not from Earth)
God is more spiritually advanced and smarter than us
God's kindom (heaven) is in the sky
God needs "fiery chariots" and other flying devices to move around in
God made us in his likeness (therefore God looks human)
God's sons uses sex (not magic) to plant their seed on Earth

YOUR bible is trying to tell you something, and I don't think you got the message. That message is that we are not alone, we have never been alone, and we will never be alone. That is "the word". That is "the truth". That is "the good news". Aliens (human looking ones at that) inspired God and religion here on Earth. Deal with it.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper "O Século", [(De Marchi 1952a)] to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, [(De Marchi 1952a:177)] both of whom were present that day. [(De Marchi 1952a:185–187)]

Then why are the only published photographs those that clearly show fewer numbers than the 30,000 or 100,000 reported? Certainly, pictures of the crowd at its largest capacity would have been the most breathtaking and picture-worthy. Unless, of course, this was part of the sensationalism induced by mass hysteria. Not to mention, the vast margin of error alone in the estimates makes me skeptical in the first place. When one guy says he saw 30,000 people and another says he saw 100,000 people, it can probably be assumed that neither are correct. The margin of error between the two accounts is about 200% - making both claims at least worthy of skepticism. That's a pretty big mistake, if you ask me. Especially considering the fact that I see no pictures with near the number of people claimed.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

As I said before this picture right here speaks volumes about your bias and your refusal to accept the truth. The fact that you would lie about the umbrellas shows that you approached this miracle with hidden bias to support your beliefs. Debunked these are pics of the crowd before the event happened.

I see how this is going to go... Great, I have another frickin' nutjob who insists that everything they have to support their ridiculous worldview is suddenly proof of the supernatural. The picture you linked to has several problems. One, to my knowledge, though it looks to be about the same time and era, I don't think it has yet been authenticated. Two, it is the only picture, to my knowledge, that claims to show a large crowd with umbrellas at the Fatima site. The majority of the pictures, taken after or during the event, show people looking at the sun (which you still haven't addressed), or kneeling on the ground in what appears to be a dry ground. I see no puddles and the ground looks almost parched in some of the pictures. For someone who claims to be so blissfully skeptical, it sure seems like you're willing to ignore those points.









http://christcome.net/Fatima/photos-onlookers-kneel.htm



http://christcome.net/Fatima/photos-news.htm

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

The fact that Lucias Mother thought she was lying wasnt surprising. The catholic church also thought she was lying and the crowd was starting to get riled upwith the kids until the miracle happened. Like I said it took at least 13 years(probably more) for the catholic church to call this a miracle.

And, as is typical, with the Catholic Church, they consulted a priest - not an independent team of skeptics - to do the research. This is the same shoddy organization that took a few hundred years after the fact to declare that Galileo was right. Not to mention, every single interview done by objective teams was inconsistent with what the good priest said really happened. No two explanations of the event were alike. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering the track record of the Catholic Church to lie in order to support their own causes and advance their own pathetic view of reality.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

I dont know about u but if I was a child and lying about something like this, as soon as I got put into prison I would recant and tell the truth, but they didnt, even when facing persecution by the law , the government and the catholic church that was a part of their faith. Im also sure that you didnt mention that the visions lucia saw told her that her cousins would die soon at an early age (which they did)

You mean they died at a young age at the height of the 1918 influenza outbreak like millions of other people around the world? Gee, that's one hell of a fulfilled prophecy. Anyone who predicted someone they knew would die in the next few years would have a very good chance of being accurate at that time. Given that World War I was raging across Europe, the influenza outbreak of 1918 was just around the corner, and the general quality of life as a peasant in Portugal was not the greatest... I'd say she had a damn good chance of being accurate - no miracle required.

I also did a preliminary search (although not a thorough one because this was the first I'd heard of it) and saw nothing about Lucia being put in prison. I did see that the local friar called her a "Nothing but a fake who is leading the world astray," and as living in a "delirious world of infantile fantasies." Those are pretty harsh criticisms from a friar who knew her rather well. Surely, if there was some sort of merit to what she had to say, the local friar would have backed her, right? After all, this is a girl who purportedly was seeing miracles in the friar's own territory. It could have catapulted him into some major positions within the Church.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

how about another photo? Like I said debunked. Lets move to the drying and cleaning of the peoples clothing and the drying of the ground shall we?

If everyone had an umbrella as the picture you claim shows them having in the middle of a downpour... How did their clothes get so magnificently soaked? Or, perhaps things may have been exaggerated? Perhaps there's something to be skeptical about? And, again, photos I've seen before and after show the ground to be pretty dry. That seems to be pretty consistent with the fact that it really didn't rain that hard.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

[LEFT]Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal's most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical), reported the following "Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws-the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people." Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat". The special reporter for the October 17, 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, "...the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds...The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands...people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they."

And you still haven't addressed the people looking at the sun for a period of time and "seeing things." Like I said before... If you stare at the sun, it will cause your eyes to go crazy for a period of time. You'll see all kinds of hues, colors, and dancing movements. There is nothing special or mysterious about that. Why have you not addressed it?

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry." [(De Marchi 1952b:150)]

This does not surprise me at all because it either rained whereby, as you claim, there were hundreds upon thousands of umbrellas, or it really didn't rain that hard. So, we don't know to what extent the people's clothes were actually soaked, whether they were feeding into the mass hysteria of the event, or if it even really rained at all. I'd say there are a lot of reasons to be skeptical of this. Whether you'd like to admit it or not means absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

This from Hafferts book: Fatima meet the witnesses:
One of the witnesses was up to his calves in water. Haffert asked him why he didn’t find dry ground and he replied: “It was the only place I could find where I could see the children”. After the Miracle the ground and his clothes were completely dry

I see no pictures at all showing that the ground had any amount of water deep enough to put a man up to his calves in water. I think this should be taken very skeptically.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

We have it from Dr. Pereira Gens that, “I still remember the delicious sensation that this warm caress of the sun gave me … I [felt] my clothes almost dry now, although they were all wet a few moments ago.”

Almost dry... How wet is "all wet?" Completely saturated or surface dampness? The sun being warm? Wow? That's a first... None of this shocks me... I'm simply not impressed.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

Again I say people if your being honest skeptics that is one thing but it looks to me again that you have a hidden bias here.

I think I've been pretty honest with you and to accuse us of being biased in light of the fact that you've offered some pretty non-credible and pathetic evidence does nothing to say we're biased. Skeptical does not mean negative - contrary to what you allegedly think. Either admit that you have an agenda and a bias (as is clearly evident by the pathetic wording of this thread) or stop it with the accusations of lies and dishonesty.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

Im not gonna even respond to the guy that posted that it was a ufo for simple common sense. There is the sun and there is a ufo. How in heck can people of all walks of faith confuse the sun with a ufo lol.

Why not? Let's say all the things that happened at Fatima really did happen. How can you be absolutely positive it wasn't aliens? I'm not saying I believe it either. But, you remain adamant that it was the Virgin Mary. I say, even if the events at Fatima did happen, you still have a long way to go in proving that it was the supernaturally inseminated woman you claim it to be.

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

As I said before the hidden bias of the atheists in this forum shows that they want to believe what is comfortable with their biases.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Christian_catholic

The fact that you would lie about the umbrellas shows that you approached this miracle with hidden bias to support your beliefs.

You mean like you lied about your list of "atheist historians" that accept that Jesus existed which, with the exception of one, turned out to be a list of theologians?