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You mean like christianity?! Because that whole belief system is false, and based on wrong-hoods- at least to me, anyway. With the exception of what jesus christ himself taught, and of course most christians throw that right out the window, or we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now...
"Inflated self-image of..."? Oh please. You're actually giving me too much credit insofar as that goes, I'd hardly consider myself anything but one who simply takes into account acceptance, equality and logic when it comes to my belief system and as well my ability to counter that which conflicts with either of those three aforementioned things. And as far as "snarkiness" being inappropriate on here- give me a break, that's what forums like this are based on. That and smug self-righteousness, both of which you've got nailed down. And we both know that if we were face to face things would be different, we'd most likely be much more polite to one another. Not that either of us would back down, I know I wouldn't and doubt you would either. But at least I'm honest enough to admit it's a lot easier throwing out generalities than it is saying such things directly and personally, to someone's face.
Now this:
Now as I say what I'm about to say please know that I think it is obvious that you are intelligent. You have a good command of the English language and whether or not I agree with you, you make your points well (insofar as they coincide with your beliefs and address others referentially and relatively). But I have to say that when you mention "the Devil" and things like "Sin"- all your credibility goes right out the window. At least for anyone who isn't an ETer or fundamentalist christian. I'm not saying that to be rude or a jerk, I'm just being honest. Some of your points would otherwise make some sense- even if I didn't agree with them- but when you talk of the devil and "his workings" and so forth- you immediately alienate those of us who aren't of the fundie mindset and as a result, you won't be taken as seriously as you would surely like.
......
So in closing, I'll just say this: while you may think you are helping people in your calling religions/spiritual avenues other than yours "dangerous", you really aren't doing anything but getting a whole bunch of people who already believe the same as you do to agree with what you are purporting. Which won't change a darn thing, and will only serve to actually do the opposite of what you intended, as no doubt anyone who has NOT already heard about that which we are discussing may actually be intrigued and investigate further...
Helios,
Thanks for your response. You are obviously intelligent as well, and also sensitive and thoughtful. This thread isn't aimed at people like you who don't believe in the devil; rather, it's aimed mainly at Christians reading who know very little about the New Age movement, in the hope that it will cause them to investigate further.
I will point out that the New Age movement is a danger to all Jews, including non-religious Jews, and belief in the devil doesn't come into the equation here. Unfortunately, most people (including most Jews), know little to nothing about the occult roots of Nazism, let alone the anti-semitic roots of the Theosophical movement, of which the modern New Age movement is a revival. This is one of the reasons I linked to The Rainbow Swastika. If you feel so strongly that knowledge is a good thing, have a gander at Newman's book. She writes beautifully, as do many independent scholars, so you will find it easy to read.
As regards the following:
you really aren't doing anything but getting a whole bunch of people who already believe the same as you do to agree with what you are purporting. Which won't change a darn thing, and will only serve to actually do the opposite of what you intended
Right back at ya
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 08-22-2010 at 03:05 AM..
Reason: added information about occult roots of Nazism
That is nothing more than an opinion... From your link...
"Who is this Hannah Newman... and why should we believe her?"
I see no reason to give her opinions any credibility at all..
.....
Nor here. I searched "new age and nazis" and all I found were a bunch of conspiracy sites that were not worth my time.
Perhaps you could point me to those scholarly articles that confirm your opinion...
You call me a flat earther and dismiss out of hand my research, and because you cannot dispute it you "put me on ignore"...Pretty easy out for you, huh?
Ah Sans, you are tugging at my heart.
Re. your sources. Granted, were this 1925 (or arguably, even 1941) we might be obliged in fairness to give Hitler's claims about himself and his motives at least a fair hearing. Given the benefit of hindsight, however, I think it's safe to say that we would want to find independent attestation for any such claims made by the man himself, including the claim that Hitler "remained a Catholic" or that Nazism was "not hostile" to traditional religion.
As regards Wikipedia--I rarely cite it as a source; it can certainly not be deemed prime facie authoritative or "without bias."
A word about so-called "conspiracy sites." I learned a long time ago not to dismiss anything out of hand simply because it appears on a site with some other information that is questionable. One common disinformation tactic is the emotive one of "guilt by association," and this must be taken into account. There is no easier way to hide an unpleasant truth than to surround it with wacky claims, thus automatically discrediting any who attempt to bring said truth to light.
Moreover, sometimes the most illuminating work on a subject is being done by independent scholars such as Hannah Newman. To dismiss the work of independent scholars out of hand without considering the merits of their work is poor practice.
Here are a few scholarly works to get you started on Nazism and the occult. Webb was an English academic; Cumbey is an attorney and independent scholar whose papers are archived at the University of Michigan.
The Occult Underground by James Webb
Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow by Constance Cumbey
The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clark
Himmler's Crusade by Christopher Hale
I would also recommend looking into Himmler and Hitler's connections to the Thule society.
That will keep you going for a good few weeks at a minimum. Happy researching.
Re. your sources. Granted, were this 1925 (or arguably, even 1941) we might be obliged in fairness to give Hitler's claims about himself and his motives at least a fair hearing. Given the benefit of hindsight, however, I think it's safe to say that we would want to find independent attestation for any such claims made by the man himself, including the claim that Hitler "remained a Catholic" or that Nazism was "not hostile" to traditional religion.
As regards Wikipedia--I rarely cite it as a source; it can certainly not be deemed prime facie authoritative or "without bias."
A word about so-called "conspiracy sites." I learned a long time ago not to dismiss anything out of hand simply because it appears on a site with some other information that is questionable. One common disinformation tactic is the emotive one of "guilt by association," and this must be taken into account. There is no easier way to hide an unpleasant truth than to surround it with wacky claims, thus automatically discrediting any who attempt to bring said truth to light.
Moreover, sometimes the most illuminating work on a subject is being done by independent scholars such as Hannah Newman. To dismiss the work of independent scholars out of hand without considering the merits of their work is poor practice.
Here are a few scholarly works to get you started on Nazism and the occult. Webb was an English academic; Cumbey is an attorney and independent scholar whose papers are archived at the University of Michigan.
The Occult Underground by James Webb
Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow by Constance Cumbey
The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clark
Himmler's Crusade by Christopher Hale
I would also recommend looking into Himmler and Hitler's connections to the Thule society.
That will keep you going for a good few weeks at a minimum. Happy researching.
The nazi regime was very religous and god fearing Hitler saw himsels and was wieved by many christians and germans in general as the second coming.
You gotta be kidding..Nazism indeed. Talk about paranoid! You do know that Hitler was a Catholic don't you?
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." Adolf Hitler. (Stated in 1941)
He was a good Catholic, with his own pope, and he patterned his organization after a catholic order. It is not appealing to a civilized society, but for Hitler’s organization it was not a bad management plan, as some of the catholic orders had already proved to be the best killing machines in human history.
The nazi regime was very religous and god fearing Hitler saw himsels and was wieved by many christians and germans in general as the second coming.
I never read he saw himself as a deity or the second coming, I think his goal was power, and control. I have read he thought his actions were a god given task and his agreements with the Catholic Church had given him a holy goal to rid the world of non catholics. His hate spanned into the removal of Muslims, Greek and Serbian Orthodox views, the Hebrew faith, and so many more. He saw himself as being on another holy crusade which would fill his need for power, and accomplish his and the catholic church’s goal of riding the civilized world of any religion but the Catholic Churches.
He was a good Catholic, with his own pope, and he patterned his organization after a catholic order. It is not appealing to a civilized society, but for Hitler’s organization it was not a bad management plan, as some of the catholic orders had already proved to be the best killing machines in human history.
This is predictable--more "Hitler was a Catholic" cr*p. He was an APOSTATE CATHOLIC, so get your facts straight.
Here is some of what Hannah Newman, a Jewish indepedent scholar, has to say:
And what did Christian leaders think of Hitler?
....Before launching his "final solution", Hitler made an effort to remove all churches and pastors who showed the least resistance to policies already in operation. For example, refusal by a church to sponsor a Hitler Youth chapter was sufficient grounds to close it down. Leaders whose integrity would not yield to political expediency, who could not be discredited by scandal, and who had the potential to influence Christians at large, were imprisoned indefinitely (Dietrich Bonnhoefer for example). Although Hitler did not close down many Catholic churches, especially where local support was strong, he vented his rage on Pope Pius XI, who had issued an encyclical condemning him as "a prophet of nothingness". ("Mit Brennender Sorge", March 14, 1937, translation posted by Paul Halsall of Fordham University) The Nazi government lodged a harsh protest with the Vatican shortly afterward (April 12, 1937 - see Georg May, _Kirchenkampf oder Katholikenverfolgung_, p.582). [I would suspect that the most damaging statements in "Mit Brennender Sorge" for the Nazis were those which exposed their "religious war" against the legacy of Judaism found in Christianity. Pius XI flatly equated Nazism with "aggressive paganism", condemned the removal of the Old Testament from churches and schools as an act of someone who "blasphemes the name of God", and reaffirmed the Jewish Bible as "sacred books" which "record the story of the chosen people, bearers of the Revelation and the Promise". The Catholic leader summarily rejected the anti-Jewish dogmas of "race and blood [and] the irradiations of a people's history" as "false coins [which] do not deserve Christian currency".
READ MORE.... The Rainbow Swastika - Nazism and the New Age
I never read he saw himself as a deity or the second coming, I think his goal was power, and control. I have read he thought his actions were a god given task and his agreements with the Catholic Church had given him a holy goal to rid the world of non catholics. His hate spanned into the removal of Muslims, Greek and Serbian Orthodox views, the Hebrew faith, and so many more. He saw himself as being on another holy crusade which would fill his need for power, and accomplish his and the catholic church’s goal of riding the civilized world of any religion but the Catholic Churches.
This is predictable--more "Hitler was a Catholic" cr*p. He was an APOSTATE CATHOLIC, so get your facts straight.
I see your statement as trying to change history so the church can feel good about itself. He was a catholic, he was close to the pope, he proclaimed his catholic values, and no special catholic division you label him with will change that.
The value of accepting history as it was, and not as you want it to have been, gives us a chance not to repeat negative actions of the past. I have no desire to make those who supported the atrocities past or present feel good about themselves. I had much rather see them acknowledge their actions and crimes.
As for the Jewish scholar, I think most of us recognize Hitler was after all religions other than his own catholics church. The issues many of my Jewish family have is the support the catholic church gave to Hitler, and the lack of even a verbal restraint related to the atrocities he and in some cases the church itself committed. Nothing you or any scholar can say or do, in an effort to turn the other cheek or be politically correct, will remove that stigma on the catholic church.
I see your statement as trying to change history so the church can feel good about itself. He was a catholic, he was close to the pope, he proclaimed his catholic values, and no special catholic division you label him with will change that.
The value of accepting history as it was, and not as you want to have been, gives us a chance not to repeat negative actions of the past. I have no desire to make those who supported the atrocities past or present feel good about themselves. I had much rather see them acknowledge their actions and crimes.
As for the Jewish scholar, I think most of us recognize Hitler was after all religions other than his own catholics church. The issues many of my Jewish family have is the support the catholic church gave to Hitler, and the lack of even a verbal restraint related to the atrocities he and in some cases the church itself committed. Nothing you or any scholar can say or do, in an effort to turn the other cheek or be politically correct, will remove that stigma on the catholic church.
I realise it's trendy to say "Nazism was a Christian movement" and "Hitler was a Catholic" but saying it is so doesn't make it so, no matter how deeply you and your family "feel" that it is so.
If you sincerely believe Nazism was a "Catholic" movement and not a neo-pagan occult one and that Hitler didn't persecute the Catholic Church, then I have some swampland to sell you down in Florida.
If you want to provide citations to back up your assertions, it might be worthwhile continuing this discussion. If not, then you are simply spreading anti-Catholic propoganda, which is despicable IMO coming from someone who claims to stand up against bigotry and persecution.
I see your statement as trying to change history so the church can feel good about itself. He was a catholic, he was close to the pope, he proclaimed his catholic values, and no special catholic division you label him with will change that.
The value of accepting history as it was, and not as you want it to have been, gives us a chance not to repeat negative actions of the past. I have no desire to make those who supported the atrocities past or present feel good about themselves. I had much rather see them acknowledge their actions and crimes.
As for the Jewish scholar, I think most of us recognize Hitler was after all religions other than his own catholics church. The issues many of my Jewish family have is the support the catholic church gave to Hitler, and the lack of even a verbal restraint related to the atrocities he and in some cases the church itself committed. Nothing you or any scholar can say or do, in an effort to turn the other cheek or be politically correct, will remove that stigma on the catholic church.
You know, your statement is really disgusting. It is as disgusting as if I were to claim "David Berkowitz proclaimed his Jewish values. He was a Jew, implementing a Jewish agenda, and nothing you do to try to whitewash that will change it."
You seem intent on spreading anti-Catholic bigotry, which will make you even more popular around here than you are already.
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