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You know that I respect all views Dewdrop. And I especially respect and admire YOU...and think your posts are some of the best this board has to offer. I know you'd never pass judgment on a simple difference of viewpoint.
I just can't bring myself to define the US as a "NonChristian Nation" on the basis that the government doesn't mandate it...or, like you say, people can point to others, or themselves, who aren't.
It's like saying the country isn't a "computer-using nation", or a "sports watching nation", or an "automobile driving nation", or anything else...just because the government didn't say we HAD to...and there are some who don't do those things.
Here, let me try this...something you can really identify with---Say someone was asked...Is the USA a "Music Listening Nation"? And they answered, "NO, IT'S NOT" the government didn't say we HAD to listen to music...and we legally CAN choose NOT TO...and some DON'T listen". Would you accept that? Or would you argue that this country IS a "Music Listening Nation"...since most do listen to music...even though there is no law saying we have to...and there are some who don't?
I guess what it boils down to, is---What does the government laws have to do with reality? The government has all kinds of laws against all kinds of things...and says we shouldn't do those things, and it is illegal to do so. So, should I now say there aren't any criminals...because you aren't supposed to violate the law?
I don't dispute that this nation doesn't HAVE to be a Christian Nation...and that there are some who aren't Christian. But that doesn't change the fact that this IS a Christian Nation...in the same way it's, say, a fast-food eating nation.
I definitely see your point. I think that this, for me, just brings to mind all the people that say this is a Christian Nation as a means to justify their view points. Like people who say gay marriage shouldn't be legal or that Muslims shouldn't have the same rights because this is a Christian Nation. It has a very negative connotation to me simply because of the people that use it for their purpose. So - I will give you that this is a Christian Nation - in the same way that this is a Freedom of Religion Nation and a Melting Pot Nation and a TV Nation, etc. But I still will not say it is a Christian Nation if you are using it as a guideline for foreign or domestic policy. Does that make sense?
The "Creator" and "Nature's God" mentioned in the DOI are non-religious references to the Deist conception of God, not the Biblical or Christian deity. Also, the DOI is not a legal or foundational document for the nation or its government. Sorry!
Quote:
Yea it really sucks when people's lives are fixed thru religion.
Haha. Sorry but no, no lives have ever been fixed through religion. Anything they think they gained through religion could just as easily have been gained through any other non-religious/god-less group therapy/social support system.
I definitely see your point. I think that this, for me, just brings to mind all the people that say this is a Christian Nation as a means to justify their view points. Like people who say gay marriage shouldn't be legal or that Muslims shouldn't have the same rights because this is a Christian Nation. It has a very negative connotation to me simply because of the people that use it for their purpose. So - I will give you that this is a Christian Nation - in the same way that this is a Freedom of Religion Nation and a Melting Pot Nation and a TV Nation, etc. But I still will not say it is a Christian Nation if you are using it as a guideline for foreign or domestic policy. Does that make sense?
Totally makes sense Dewdrop.
MOF...I have one of the strictest viewpoints I know of regarding the government being involved in "religion".
There should be ZERO...and I mean, ZERO...government involvement with religion. They shouldn't even MENTION it. That's not their job. Their job is 100% secular...inject religious views, and you are going to have problems. Let the people do their thing in that regard...the government shouldn't have squat to say about it...EITHER way. No decision should ever be made by a government with any kind of religious doctrine in play. Including not showing them the special treatment of being tax exempt...except for the portion they give to charity, and the minimal logistical & administrative cost to do it. You don't need a "facility" on every corner to pull that off...so TAX EM'! THAT view will make me a real popular guy, huh?!
The trouble is...it's all so rigged. When a politician sees a "voting block" that has that many people, they have to accommodate to get the VOTES.
This country spends hundreds of billions of dollars each year for the privilege of watching the NFL, the NBA, the NHA, the MLB etc. while nearly a billion people in the world are starving to death or suffering from malnutrition, by default most of them children.
If they were honestly carrying out their charge from no less than Jesus himself is this even within the realm of possibility?
I hope you enjoy the following Scripture:
Mark 14:7
For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
Psalm 41:1
Blessed is he that considereth thepoor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
Psalm 72:2,4,12,13
[2] He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thypoor with judgment.
[4] He shall judge thepoor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
[12] For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; thepoor also, and him that hath no helper.
[13] He shall spare thepoor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Proverbs 19:4
[4] Wealth maketh many friends; but thepoor is separated from his neighbour.
Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge thepoor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Mark 12:42,43
[42] And there came a certainpoor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
[43] And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That thispoor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to thepoor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
MOF...I have one of the strictest viewpoints I know of regarding the government being involved in "religion".
There should be ZERO...and I mean, ZERO...government involvement with religion. They shouldn't even MENTION it. That's not their job. Their job is 100% secular...inject religious views, and you are going to have problems. Let the people do their thing in that regard...the government shouldn't have squat to say about it...EITHER way. No decision should ever be made by a government with any kind of religious doctrine in play. Including not showing them the special treatment of being tax exempt...except for the portion they give to charity, and the minimal logistical & administrative cost to do it. You don't need a "facility" on every corner to pull that off...so TAX EM'! THAT view will make me a real popular guy, huh?!
The trouble is...it's all so rigged. When a politician sees a "voting block" that has that many people, they have to accommodate to get the VOTES.
You know that I respect all views Dewdrop. And I especially respect and admire YOU...and think your posts are some of the best this board has to offer. I know you'd never pass judgment on a simple difference of viewpoint.
I just can't bring myself to define the US as a "NonChristian Nation" on the basis that the government doesn't mandate it...or, like you say, people can point to others, or themselves, who aren't.
It's like saying the country isn't a "computer-using nation", or a "sports watching nation", or an "automobile driving nation", or anything else...just because the government didn't say we HAD to...and there are some who don't do those things.
Here, let me try this...something you can really identify with---Say someone was asked...Is the USA a "Music Listening Nation"? And they answered, "NO, IT'S NOT" the government didn't say we HAD to listen to music...and we legally CAN choose NOT TO...and some DON'T listen". Would you accept that? Or would you argue that this country IS a "Music Listening Nation"...since most do listen to music...even though there is no law saying we have to...and there are some who don't?
I guess what it boils down to, is---What does the government laws have to do with reality? The government has all kinds of laws against all kinds of things...and says we shouldn't do those things, and it is illegal to do so. So, should I now say there aren't any criminals...because you aren't supposed to violate the law?
I don't dispute that this nation doesn't HAVE to be a Christian Nation...and that there are some who aren't Christian. But that doesn't change the fact that this IS a Christian Nation...in the same way it's, say, a fast-food eating nation.
When the phrase, "this is a Christain nation" is used in the context you mentioned, I understand what you are saying. However, as Dewdrop noted, that phrase is usually used in a manner suggesting that the non-Christian minority should automatically accept biblical precepts; sometimes, these precepts trample on civil rights, ecspecially the civil rights of minority groups. I've heard that phrase used as justification for denying gay marriages and our former president George H. Bush said that atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots because this is "one nation under God". Majority rule is not always a good idea as the majority can be wrong. Fortunately, we have court systems to appeal the laws that violate our rights.
Let us remember the words of God...."I Give you everything"
Now let us protract on that and consider the ramifications of ownership...if we are God's children...and heirs of everything....then why are we paying for only some of it, and never really owning it forever...cause we die off.
In the ideal of Christ Jesus who shared the fish, and the healing for free...and said follow me.
That is what Christian faith should be about...sharing and caring!
When you do these things liberally and with the heart...You become Christian in nature!
It is a natural estate...not a religion persay!
And what feeds the hungery?....food!...and how do we get food to feed the multitudes?
Ah ha....tend and keep the Garden, and sow those seeds....
So the religion based God....is speaking about logical progressions which if followed make a abundantly giving world order, which takes care of many living things....which in turn when taken care of correctly help us, help God....make more!
This is in keeping with logical progressions!
Now sin...is being disobediant to the word, and will, and laws of God.
Not sharing
Not helping
Not caring
Not doing
Not making
Not listening
Not reasoning
Not Being educated in thought, or mind...to do the right thing.
Not saying the truth, so the lie resounds.
Yes...that is America Under the hood, and IDOL told not to make....even with its word IN GOD WE TRUST on it....it is breaking a commandment of God...and look how much in debt that Nation is....when it has so much Natural resources, and hard working people HEAVILY TAXED I might add....
Funny How that is eh?
And it is not the only one using this IDOL or MODEL (Romaness Democracy?)...and look into them who are like it...or use the IDOL......ah ha..more poverty, more sickness, more sufferings....wonder why?
Although they think they are Christians tossing Money at the poverty and shame this world has....they do not see (BLIND) that it is the money/IDOL that creates the shame to begin with!
And that is why Jesus Kicked it out of his fathers house!..."YOU ARE MAKING A DEN OF SINNERS ROBBERS AND THIEVES"....Jesus said
Sharing is better...when done in accordance to the word and will of God.
But because we do not listen to those words of wisdom, nor do the will completely, or abide under those laws of God, or the laws of the land God gave us...and all the givens.....we have the poor with us continually!
Amen?
So what is a Christian nation?....it does not exist yet!...there are those who give...but they are giving the wrong things!
And if the nation holds the IDOL in any contention (economic systems)....then it is not a Christian nation!...for Jesus never used, touched, or asked for MONEY to do anything!
Now we have that model to think about...while we look at the world that did not listen to reason, logics, or wisdom....and look how many are suffering now!
and look, the lands are on fire, the hail has come with the flooding,...and the odd weather threatens more woe and wrath to come on those who make warfare their main goal.......as it all goes the wrong way under that Idol.....More wars, more taxes, more cost to live in it, and more suffering because of it.....while they pollute it, and defile it, and shamefully disgrace it...sipping the dead blood for false profits and gains in a deteriorating eco system which supports them all.
When are they going to awaken from the delusional mindset of self destruction?
This is why I always donate to Goodwill Industries and other secular charities that focus on actually helping people without pushing their dogma in the process.
The other guy had the audacity to imply that I didn't know the Salvation Army was a Christian organization. He should go and do his homework. That organzation manages to get about $0.83 of every donated dollar to the needy. A Christian church on the other hand spends about that much on the preacher and his expenses, church buildings, building additions, fancy carpeting, stained glass, organs, pianos and other musical instruments, expensive sound system, maintenance on their properties, missionaries and payments to convention or denomination administrations(headquarters) etc.
When Christians give a tenth to the church and fool themselves into believing they're feeding the hungry they couldn't be more mistaken. Feeding how many hungry?
Churches in the world own more real property than any other entity except the governments of the world. If all the church property in the world was sold tomorrow and an everlasting investment set up the hungry in the world could be fed to perpituity but guess what? You couldn't pry them loose from what they hold with a crowbar.
I told a story a while back about a man who was dying from cancer and because the only living relative he had was an estranged daughter he had not seen for most of her life he decided to leave everything to the church. At some point his daughter heard of his condition and visited him a few times and when it appeared that a reconciliation was possible the man called the church folks with whom he had already entered into an agreement about his possessions and savings(which was a bunch...part of it a 300 acre farm with mineral rights which were worth no telling what because an oil conglomerate had already determined that the property was on oil deposits) and guess what? The church reneged the good faith agreement, hired lawyers and took the man to court over his own lifetime accumulations. Thank goodness a judge ruled in the man's favor and did it before he died earlier this year. Know what?...I don't know it for sure but because of the way the man thought and felt I'll bet the church still got most of it.
Yes I donate quite a bit of what we give to charity to the Salvation Army because they actually do something with it besides build things for themselves.
Last edited by Melvin.George; 08-21-2010 at 05:15 AM..
I checked for updates on the Web, and found Wikipedia had an updated list for the US religious breakdown. It supports our need to be a secular society.
The combined catholics and protestants for a range of 58% to 82%
Unaffiliated, Atheist, Agnostic 11% to 37%
Islam .6% to 1,6%
Buddhism .5% to 1.6%
Hinduism .4%
Other 1.4%
Looking at these numbers I think it is safe to say we are not a christian nation but a mixed nation, and like our system was set up not tied to any one religion. Being an Atheist I am pleased to see the continued climb in the 2nd largest group. Up to 37% is the highest I have seen.
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