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Ahh, but you see, the OP was speaking of Christian prayers being taken out of schools. Catholics aren't real Christians so their prayers are not valid. That explains you and your classmates' moral deficiencies.
Oh yeah, well there is that. I will never forget the first time I had a Baptist explain that to me. And believe me, in Dallas, Tx, you had that explained to you a lot.
Here's a cute little story I found online awhile back which provides a nice parable about school-sponsored prayer:
As you know, We’ve been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in our schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the supreme court and get the old devil-inspired ruling reversed.
Naturally, we were all excited by the school board action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.
After the first day of school, I asked him, “How did the prayer time go?”
“Fine.”
“Did many kids go out into the hallway?”
“Two.”
“Excellent. How did you like your teachers prayer?”
“It was different, dad. Real different from the way you pray.”
“Oh? Like how?”
“She said,‘Hail Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners…’”
The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn’t prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.
At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged, closed his eyes, raised his hand palms up in the air and began to hum.
You’d better believe I was at the principal’s office at eight o’clock the next morning. “Look,” I said. ‘I don’t really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable If you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion.
That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.
“I don’t think you’re going to like Mrs. Nakasone’s prayer, either, Dad.”
“Out with it.”
“She kept chanting Namu Amida Butsu…”
The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot.
“Look, I don’t want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher who prays in Jesus’ name!”
“What about Bertha Smith?”
“Excellent.”
I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith’s prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.
“Well?” I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.
“Okay.”
“Okay what?”
“Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus’ name, amen just like you.”
I breathed a sigh of relief. “Now we’re getting some place.”
“She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer,” said Billy.
I beamed. “Wonderful. What was the verse?”
“Lets see…” he mused for a moment. “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”
We had reached the car. “Fantastic,” I said reaching for the door handle. Then paused. I couldn’t place the scripture.
“Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?”
“Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18.”
“Nephi what?”
“Nephi,” he said. “It’s in the Book of Mormon.”
The school board doesn’t meet for a month. I’ve given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he’s to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don’t do something about this situation, I’LL sue. I’LL take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don’t need schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much."
A delightful little parable and thanks for giving me a chuckle.
However, we all know that it would never have got to that stage. After the first 'Hail Mary' session a group of parents would have got together and given specific instruction as to what sort of prayers they wanted taught in the school.
Of course, prayer was never actually removed from public schools. What was removed was state sponsored, teacher-led prayer that favored a particular deity or religious belief system, an act which was anti-constitutional and illegal from its inception.
There is absolutely nothing stopping children or staff from praying during school hours as long as they do it quietly on their own time and are not disruptive or offensive to others.
I agree completely!
I for one am grateful that teacher-led prayer was removed from classrooms. I could, if I wanted to, send my children to a religious school of the denomination of my choice, and then I would feel comfortable with teacher-led prayers there. However, in a public school, I would not care to have a teacher, whose religious ideas may not resemble mine at all, lead prayers with my child. I can't teach my child math and science myself, so I will ask public school teachers to do that for me. But I can teach my child about prayer and about our church and faith and I would prefer to do that myself!
1. Before 1963 divorce rates had been declining for 15 years. After 1963 divorces increased 300% each year for the next 15 years.
2. Since 1963 unmarried people living together is up 353%
3. Since 1963 single parent families are up 140%.
4. Since 1963 single parent families with children are up 160%.
.......
In 1963, the first Beatles album, "Introducing the Beatles" was released in America.
I blame all of this on those wacky mop-tops from England.
Of course, prayer was never actually removed from public schools. What was removed was state sponsored, teacher-led prayer that favored a particular deity or religious belief system, an act which was anti-constitutional and illegal from its inception.
Agree completely. The First Amendment of the United States Constitution clearly states Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, passed in the aftermath of the Civil War, made this apply to the States and, by extension, to all regional and local governments.
This issue was decided by the SCOTUS in the 1950s and has been consistently reaffirmed and upheld ever since. Basically it means that no government or other publicly-funded agency, or any public official, in the United States may do, or permit to be done, on any premises it controls or uses, anything that favors one religious practice over another. That's why no prayers of any kind may be publicly conducted, and why no crosses, Stars of David, or any other religious symbol may be displayed, in or on any government or publicly-owned facility.
Public schools fall smack-dab into the middle of this. Ergo, no public prayers of any kind, because do to so favors one religion over another. This actually protects all religions from "interference" by another. For example, imagine the reaction of the Pentecostal parents whose child comes home from public school making the Sign of the Cross!!!
No one has ever said, or AFAIK has ever attempted to enforce, that no individual may offer a silent or softly-spoken personal prayer within such a facility. Why? Because to do so would violate the second part by "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
Regards,
-- Nighteyes (raised Pentecostal, married a Catholic, and who now follows the teachings of Christ as he understands them)
Last edited by Nighteyes; 08-31-2010 at 01:28 PM..
If the US is 85% Christian then why aren't they teaching their kid's these morals and values at home and in church? I was raised with no religion and did not have any of these things happen to me growing up. My parents taught me morals and values without prayer. Why aren't all the Christians doing the same?
And why would Christians want prayer in schools? Do they need help teaching their children their beliefs? They can't do that themselves? Or is it that they want to convert other people's children? Seems like the second option is the answer here.
Sorry, I don't need the schools to teach my children my beliefs or the right way to be as they are growing up. And my son is now working on his Eagle Scout, in the Honors program, has his Black Belt, and is on the fast track towards college. No pregnancies, drugs, etc. And all without prayer of any kind. And also, my parents have been married over 50 years and my husband and I are getting ready to have our 22nd anniversary...all without any religion at all. The horror!
I can teach my child the right way to be, why do Christians need the schools to do the same for them?
If the US is 85% Christian then why aren't they teaching their kid's these morals and values at home and in church? I was raised with no religion and did not have any of these things happen to me growing up. My parents taught me morals and values without prayer. Why aren't all the Christians doing the same?
And why would Christians want prayer in schools? Do they need help teaching their children their beliefs? They can't do that themselves? Or is it that they want to convert other people's children? Seems like the second option is the answer here.
Sorry, I don't need the schools to teach my children my beliefs or the right way to be as they are growing up. And my son is now working on his Eagle Scout, in the Honors program, has his Black Belt, and is on the fast track towards college. No pregnancies, drugs, etc. And all without prayer of any kind. And also, my parents have been married over 50 years and my husband and I are getting ready to have our 22nd anniversary...all without any religion at all. The horror!
I can teach my child the right way to be, why do Christians need the schools to do the same for them?
The worse thing is that they extend those ideas into other areas, until the school music department can't even have a Christmas concert any more.
Why should there be a Christmas concert, at all?
Why should a gov't school use tax funds to pay someone to teach Christian religious songs?
Just because it was done in the past, doesn't mean it is the right thing to continue to do.
Those folks who want their children to be part of a Christian choir, should do so through their church, or group of churches, who, in turn, can hire a choir teacher and rent the high school auditorium, if no other venue is available, for their Christmas concert.
IdahoMormon;15579298]Which is all fine and good until it also gets taken to extremes. There are people for whom ANY prayer is offensive. They arrange to take offense. Then they sue the school and win, and it becomes a big deal and people are afraid to even pray over their food in the cafeteria because they might get sued.
people can pray. People do all the time. You just can't make it a group activity that school kids have to take part in.
The worse thing is that they extend those ideas into other areas, until the school music department can't even have a Christmas concert any more. Even if 85% of the students are Christian and the rest don't care, except for one who chooses it as her cause. Have you ever tried selecting music for a concert and discarding anything that didn't at least have religious overtones? And some of the best music is blatantly religious.
So the majority wins. I have been in the minority and I had to take part in Christian prayer and luckily there was an opt out of Bible class. I still got picked on by the majority. Why can't the majority Christian population have their religious practice be in their home, church? Why does it need to be in the public school. My kids have winter holidays and winter concerts. All the children can be a part.
Why can't they just have 85% of the music be religious, and 15% be secular, and maybe include one Jewish song and one for the Native American in the school? But that's not good enough. Why should MY daughter have to sing about Christ? Well on the other hand, why shouldn't MY son be able to sing about Christ?
Again if you feel that strongly maybe you ought to be in a Christian private school. When my son was in kindergarten they had a winter program that acknowledged many of the different religious practices that fall during December, not just Christmas. The kids had lots of fun and learned about others religious practice. The one thing I pick up through out your post is any lack of empathy for children who aren't Christian. What about them? My children are not Christian, why should they have to sit though a Christian Christmas concert? If you say Christians are in the majority and that the minority doesn't care. What if the shoe were on the other foot and the majority was lets say Muslim and the Christians were in the minority would then it be ok for the majority to have religious practice in the school? Would you mind? It is something to think about.
It's too bad in a choir you can't all just sing about whatever you want. You have to all sing the same thing or it just doesn't sound as good.
But it is not about singing what you want it is about Christmas songs.
Well the most immediate effect was that many christians stopped intentionally disrespecting Jesus and spitting on his grave.
Your god specifically commands you to pray in private and he states in no uncertain terms that people who pray in public are hypocrites, so for the life of me I can't figure out why christians would tell Jesus to **** while they prayed in public against his wishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flguy1192
A. Young People
1. For 15 years before 1963 pregnancies in girls ages 15 through 19 years had been no more than 15 per thousand After 1963 pregnancies increased 187% in the next 15 years.
2. For younger girls, ages 10 to 14 years, pregnancies since 1963 are up 553%.
3. Before 1963 sexually transmitted diseases among students were 400 per 100,000. Since 1963, they were up 226% in the next 12 years.
That has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the breakdown of the family. The breakdown of the family was not caused by the absence of religion, rather it was caused by "no-fault" divorce, the Grotesque Society which destroyed the lower income white and black families, and very materialistic people who are more self-absorbed and interested in purchasing McGadgets for their McMansion than instilling values and spending quality time with their trophy children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flguy1192
B. The Family
1. Before 1963 divorce rates had been declining for 15 years. After 1963 divorces increased 300% each year for the next 15 years.
2. Since 1963 unmarried people living together is up 353%
3. Since 1963 single parent families are up 140%.
4. Since 1963 single parent families with children are up 160%.
That has nothing to do with religion, rather it has to do with the creation of "no-fault" divorce laws.
Prior to that, divorce could only be granted on a showing of abandonment, domestic violence, alcoholism or drug abuse, crimes of moral turpitude, or adultery.
Um, "the grass is greener on the other side" was not a valid claim for divorce. The Grotesque Society is also another cause since it destroyed most of the lower income families by giving them handouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flguy1192
C. Education
1. The educational standard of measure has been the SAT scores. SAT scores had been steady for many years before 1963. From 1963 they rapidly declined for 18 consecutive years, even though the same test has been used since 1941.
2. In 1974-75 the rate of decline of the SAT scores decreased, even though they continued to decline. That was when there was an explosion of private religious schools. There were only 1000 Christian schools in 1965. Between 1974 to 1984 they increased to 32,000.
a. That could have an impact if the private schools had higher SAT scores. In checking with the SAT Board it was found that indeed the SAT scores for private schools were nearly 100 points higher than public schools.
b. In fact the scores were at the point where the public schools had been before their decline started in 1963 when prayer and Bible reading/ instruction was removed from the schools.
c. The scores in the public schools were still declining.
3. Of the nation's top academic scholars, three times as many come from private religious schools, which operate on one-third the funds as do the public schools.
Again, that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the break down of the family.
You can't help your trophy children with homework if your face is glued to an inane sit-com or you're shopping at the mall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flguy1192
D. The Nation
1. Since 1963 violent crime has increased 544%.
2. Illegal drugs have become an enormous & uncontrollable problem.
3. The nation has been deprived of an estimated 50 million citizens through legal abortions just since 1973, with 1 million additional yearly.
That has nothing to do with religion either.
On a side note, since prayer has been removed from schools, there has been a decrease in the number of heads of state the US has murdered or attempted to murder.
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