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Of course, if you knew anything about the Bible, you would understand that often the Bible does not give formal names. You will not find the name Jesus Christ in the Old Testament either. Yet because Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies in the Old Testament, billions of people call Him Lord today. America is spoken of in the same way.
Oh. I see. In other words, you can make up whatever you want, completely unsupported, and then claim it's fully supported by hidden biblical phraseology.
I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
A prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled is not a failed prophecy. Some in the past made the same mistake suggesting that Israels return was a failed prophecy as well. Yet after 1948, that all changed. Egypt's desolation may occur during Christ's 1,000 year Millennium reign. And that of course, is in the future.
Ahhh...in the future huh? As are all the bible's prophecies, since not one of them has UNAMBIGUOUSLY occurred without a vivid imagination or falsifying the observations.
I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Some in Hamas have stopped the rocket attacks, not all of them. And that is where the problem is found. You have the more moderates, and you have the radicals. The question is, which side will win?
Oh. So you claim the prophecy is thus upheld and also predictably in process because of Hama's cessation of missile launches? And then we show you that, in fact, those attacks have not stopped, that your interpretation is, again and predictably, faulty.
But then you yammer on that not all of them have stopped. So, no it's not a question of "who will win", but rather where you come off making wild claims that prophecies are in process in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk
I agree with you!
Why are none of us not surprised by this poster's happy compliance? Talk about predictable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Yeah, that's pretty much about nothing. The fact is the Bible gives many details of it's prophecies. And most often I believe those details are ignored by you, or others. And then I am attacked by those who make these vague, or general statements that cannot be questioned.
How hilarious. You, making vague unsupported commentary, and when we find your usual errors and ambiguities, you change the topic and call us out for being vague.
Again, I see.
And of course you do that, because accusations that cannot be considered are the best way to attack someone. Of course for me, that only reveals the weakness of your position, and your beliefs.
Wow. Moderator cut: deleted BTW, what about the errors I pointed out in your mis-directed and error-filled commentary about those 80M+ yr old dinos and the determination by a large team of scientists that the "tissues" are more demonstrably just slime?
Why did you purposefully fail to provide the complete story, Tom? In fact, why do you persist in using this strategy over and over, assuming we don't see through it?
You know Fred you're right, I should be fair about it. It's a book that should never have come into existence, were it not for a pagan Emperor who was trying to keep peace in his empire and with his mother and trying to keep the different Christian beliefs from trying to kill off one another, the Council of Nicaea would have never happen and very possibly the so-called sacred book would've never come into existence, now I think that's being fair about it.
ptsum: An excellent post. I tried to rep you but wasn't allowed to. Christianity was one of a great number of Roman "mystery religions", but with the help of the Emperor, it caught on and the others died out.
If you take the 4th letter of the 7th word from the 19th line of each page of the bible, it actually does mention the United States. And it says that we are going to desh beghnr the ghjmdg fgyuj forever.
No, that's off base.
Everyone knows god spoke through Shakespeare, and the Shakespeare Scriptures are far more accurate. Just look:
"Obama Healthcare" CASSIUS (speaking):
Therefore, good Brutus, be prepared to hear:
And since you know you cannot see yourself
So well as by reflection, I, your glass,
Will modestly discover to yourself
That of yourself which you yet know not of.
And be not jealous on me, gentle Brutus:
Were I a common laugher, or did use
To stale with ordinary oaths my love
To every new protester; if you know
That I do fawn on men and hug them hard
And after scandal them, or if you know
That I profess myself in banqueting
To all the rout, then hold me dangerous.
Obama healthcare in the Julius Ceasar Code. Pretty scary huh?
While some here debate if God exists, those of us who follow the Biblical prophecies and believe in them understand. That another prophecy my be nearing fulfillment. According to the Bible, before the destruction of the United States, and the return of Jesus Christ. Israel will experience a short time of peace with her neighbors. The Bible tells us that this time of peace for Israel, will lead the world into the greatest global conflict of all time.
Excuse me but the USA is never mentioned in my bible. What bible do you have????
One that allows him to see things that aren't there. Stand by for some obscure biblical reference to a donkey stepping on a stone which he will claim refers to the USA.
Oh, it will be a lot more Nostradamus - like than that. I recall as a teenager a silly old woman telling me "The kings o' the norf shall come dahn souf - That's th' russhans!"
Campbell's predictions of the modern age are better than that but it really is picking out the bits that seem to fit and overlooking or 'interpreting' the bits that don't. It is cherry - picking prophecy. The same thing with the claimed prophecies of Jesus.
And Tyre, Babylon and so -on. Campbell makes a big play of 'many nations'. I have to agree that saying that this refers to Nebuchadnezzar because he could call on various contingents is strained. Nevertheless, The prophecy of scraping the rock bare and being a place to spread nets in the midst of the sea was not fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar.
I'll tell you what I think. I think that this prophecy was fulfilled partly by Alexander when he broke down mainland Tyre and constructed a causeway to island Tyre. No doubt in Ezekiel's time it was a pier of bare masonry rubble for the fishermen to spread nets. But of course it didn't stay like that. Tyre became a great emporium and thriving city again and the causeway silted up and is now part of the thriving port of Sur.
But can Ezekiel be as late as Alexander? I think it can as otherwise how would he have known about the causeway? No, not prophecy as it does not go beyond being bare and desolate, which was never really fulfilled, except temporarily in the time of Alexander.
But there's more. Ezekiel 28.3 refers to Tyre's king being as wise as Daniel. Daniel certainly is not of Persian date but refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and is datable to 167 BCE. Ezekiel must be later than that if it refers to Daniel, unless there is some earlier Biblical reference to Daniel. Is there?
1Ch 3:1
Ezr 8:2
Neh 10:6
Eze 14:14
Eze 28:3 - the king of Tyre comparison.
The first three refer to other Daniels - not the one of the Book of Daniel. The only other references are Ezekiel, including Eze 28:3 - the king of Tyre comparison.
Thus Daniel was invented in the time of the Seleucids as a rallying cry for the Maccabean revolt and Ezekiel's reference must refer to that Daniel as the Bible does not otherwise mention him.
I must say I thought Ezekiel dated to after the return from captivity but not as late as 2nd c. BCE, but it sure looks like the writer of Ezekiel and Daniel are contemporaneous.
So that gives an explanation of the prophecy including 'many nations' - two at least. Campbell34 may say that won't do, but I think, in view of the strong doubts about the whole prophecy, no reasonably rational person can see that as anything other than clutching at straws - just as futile as clinging to the slight doubt about the 'clothes - drier' miracle as regards discredited miracle Fatima or the 'law shall not pass away' problem in respect of the discredited - as - factual gospels.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-26-2010 at 04:05 AM..
Reason: The usual editing..
ptsum: An excellent post. I tried to rep you but wasn't allowed to. Christianity was one of a great number of Roman "mystery religions", but with the help of the Emperor, it caught on and the others died out.
And the use of FORCE was a great help as well...believe or die doesn't leave one with many options...now does it? And we won't mention how all oppositional scriptures were burned and destroyed...except for the ones that were hidden away.
Oh, it will be a lot more Nostradamus - like than that. I recall as a teenager a silly old woman telling me "The kings o' the norf shall come dahn souf - That's th' russhans!"
That isn't what it says.
In CBH there are only the 4 cardinal points and there's no words expressing intermediate points like southwest, southeast etc.
The actual passage referred to says "west and north" because that's how CBH expresses intermediates. In translation, "west and north" would be akin to "west by northwest" or possibly "north by northwest."
That would suggest the EU, not Russia.
I would also remind everyone of the propaganda techniques used by christians (same as the US government) which typically employ Mercator projection maps.
Mercator projections distort land masses at the higher latitudes which makes Russia appear to be about 12 times larger than it really is. Longitudinal lines more or less have the same width at the equator, but as you approach the polar region, they become infinitesimally smaller. An azithumal map is better than a Mercator (or other ) projection but not nearly as good as a globe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
But there's more. Ezekiel 28.3 refers to Tyre's king being as wise as Daniel. Daniel certainly is not of Persian date but refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and is datable to 167 BCE. Ezekiel must be later than that if it refers to Daniel, unless there is some earlier Biblical reference to Daniel. Is there?
That isn't even possible.
For one thing, both Ezekiel and Isaiah quote Ugaritic texts. Ugarit was destroyed and its language ceased to exist circa 1200 BCE - 1190 BCE.
The Hebrews spoke a dialect of Ugarit, so that alone disproves the Exodus, because the Hebrews would have had to be in contact with the Ugarits for more than a century in order for the Hebrews to have totally adopted Ugarit culture, language, myths and the Ugarit pantheon (Hebrew is Ugarit without the case endings).
The Leviathan Myth and other things are plagiarized from the Ugarits, as are many of the Psalms and Proverbs (in fact many of the Psalms that made no sense have now been emended by the discovery of Ugaritic texts by French and Israeli archaeologists).
The story of Yahweh holding council with some unnamed others is also a rip from Ugaritic texts. In that text, it is Bull-El who meets with his sons, El Shaddai, Yahweh and others.
El Shaddai of course is an Akkadian phrase that found its way into Canaanite and the Canaanite dialects (like Ugarit) and he was a fertility god. Note that whenever Abrahm or Isaac or others bless their families or are told to be "fruitful" or that they will have great progeny and form a huge nation and what not, it is always, without exception, El Shaddai speaking and not Yahweh, or it is the name of El Shaddai is invoked and not Yahweh. That is because when Abrahm left Akkad and went to Canaan, he adopted their pantheon and gods and his own.
Ugaritic tnn with the Hebrew tnn (tanin) i.e. sea monster
Ugaritic ’qltn with the Hebrew ’qltn (’agallaton) “squirmingâ€
Ugaritic brh with the Hebrew brh (bariakh) usually translated “fast-movingâ€
That’s from the Ugaritic Leviathan Myth, which shows that not only was the Hebrew language influenced by Ugarit, so were Hebrew myths and religious thought. In fact, this shows a heavy influence of West Semitic myths in general as Leviathan is a sea creature that symbolizes the destructive water of the sea. Here’s part of the Ugaritic Myth:
[1] Was not the dragon vanquished and captured? I did destroy the wriggling serpent, the tyrant with seven heads [2] For all that you smote Leviathan the slippery serpent, [and] made an end of the wriggling serpent, the tyrant with seven heads
Sound familiar? (The bracketed numbers are the actual line numbers from the Ugaritic text).
That proves conclusively that the Hebrews borrowed the Leviathan Myth from the Ugarits if you compare that with Ezekiel, Isaiah and also Job (which was plagiarized from the Akkadians).
Daniel as a written work existed prior to the 4th Century BCE, since Daniel is quoted in the Mishnah and other texts. In fact there is a discussion about whether the Aramaic part of the texts in Daniel are "clean" and able to be read without engaging in special sacrifices and rituals.
There are several other rabbinical texts from the 4th Century that mention the text of Daniel, but do not quote Daniel, so we know it existed as early as the 4th Century BCE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
And the use of FORCE was a great help as well.
Oh, puleeeze. Sticking a hot iron rod up someone's rectum because they refuse to acknowledge the man in the funny hat in Rome is not torture.
It's like water-boarding, only, well, different, sort of, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
nothing in the bible about the united states.
But there is in the Shakespeare Scriptures. According to the Gospel of MacBeth, the secret code extrapolated from the sacred texts quite plainly says the US will have Thursday as a national holiday and that the people will build lots of highways and wear iPods while driving their SUVs sending text messages using their cell-phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptusm
It's a book that should never have come into existence
That's history.
The 10 tribes stayed in Canaan and over 4 centuries developed the region into vast orchards and farmland, then parlayed that into a successful commercial venture, and then learned how to manage it a la multi-national corporation style.
In contrast, Judah in the south was dirt poor. The smallest towns in the north were bigger and wealthier than Jerusalem, which was a po-dunk backwater town consisting of a whole 12 acres and booming population of 1,000 to 1,200 people. When the clans of Reuben, Simeon and Levi left Egypt and came back to Canaan (the um, big Exdous thingy), it made matters worse.
During that time, you had the development of two different religious ideologies, in the north based largely on their heroes and in the south based largely on Judah and his descendants.
Solomon the Idiot who was the dumbest head-of-state ever (except maybe for Saddam Hussein) and his stupid policies caused a rift.
Later, when the Kingdom of Israel is sacked, the elite flee to Jerusalem (as evidenced by the fact that the tiny village suddenly expands into 100+ acres and a population of nearly 20,000) and in conjunction with the religious elite there, form a new religious doctrine that merges both the E-documents and the J-documents and that is the whole purpose of the Exodus Trilogy, it's a National Unity document (it's an embarrassment to have your culture separated and destroyed etc etc etc etc and you see this often -- even now as revisionists attempt to foster National Unity among the dozens and dozens of native American tribal groups).
Anyway, if the northern kingdom survives, you have the development of two separate cultures and eventually two separate ethnic groups with two separate sets of religious beliefs and the bible that everyone is reading now never exists.
In CBH there are only the 4 cardinal points and there's no words expressing intermediate points like southwest, southeast etc.
The actual passage referred to says "west and north" because that's how CBH expresses intermediates. In translation, "west and north" would be akin to "west by northwest" or possibly "north by northwest."
That would suggest the EU, not Russia.
I would also remind everyone of the propaganda techniques used by christians (same as the US government) which typically employ Mercator projection maps.
Mercator projections distort land masses at the higher latitudes which makes Russia appear to be about 12 times larger than it really is. Longitudinal lines more or less have the same width at the equator, but as you approach the polar region, they become infinitesimally smaller. An azithumal map is better than a Mercator (or other ) projection but not nearly as good as a globe.
I don't disagree.
Quote:
That isn't even possible.
For one thing, both Ezekiel and Isaiah quote Ugaritic texts. Ugarit was destroyed and its language ceased to exist circa 1200 BCE - 1190 BCE.
The Hebrews spoke a dialect of Ugarit, so that alone disproves the Exodus, because the Hebrews would have had to be in contact with the Ugarits for more than a century in order for the Hebrews to have totally adopted Ugarit culture, language, myths and the Ugarit pantheon (Hebrew is Ugarit without the case endings).
The Leviathan Myth and other things are plagiarized from the Ugarits, as are many of the Psalms and Proverbs (in fact many of the Psalms that made no sense have now been emended by the discovery of Ugaritic texts by French and Israeli archaeologists).
The story of Yahweh holding council with some unnamed others is also a rip from Ugaritic texts. In that text, it is Bull-El who meets with his sons, El Shaddai, Yahweh and others.
El Shaddai of course is an Akkadian phrase that found its way into Canaanite and the Canaanite dialects (like Ugarit) and he was a fertility god. Note that whenever Abrahm or Isaac or others bless their families or are told to be "fruitful" or that they will have great progeny and form a huge nation and what not, it is always, without exception, El Shaddai speaking and not Yahweh, or it is the name of El Shaddai is invoked and not Yahweh. That is because when Abrahm left Akkad and went to Canaan, he adopted their pantheon and gods and his own.
Ugaritic tnn with the Hebrew tnn (tanin) i.e. sea monster
Ugaritic ’qltn with the Hebrew ’qltn (’agallaton) “squirming”
Ugaritic brh with the Hebrew brh (bariakh) usually translated “fast-moving”
That’s from the Ugaritic Leviathan Myth, which shows that not only was the Hebrew language influenced by Ugarit, so were Hebrew myths and religious thought. In fact, this shows a heavy influence of West Semitic myths in general as Leviathan is a sea creature that symbolizes the destructive water of the sea. Here’s part of the Ugaritic Myth:
[1] Was not the dragon vanquished and captured? I did destroy the wriggling serpent, the tyrant with seven heads [2] For all that you smote Leviathan the slippery serpent, [and] made an end of the wriggling serpent, the tyrant with seven heads
Sound familiar? (The bracketed numbers are the actual line numbers from the Ugaritic text).
That proves conclusively that the Hebrews borrowed the Leviathan Myth from the Ugarits if you compare that with Ezekiel, Isaiah and also Job (which was plagiarized from the Akkadians).
I wouldn't deny the existence of old non - hebrew myths creeping into Hebrew thought and surviving into a late stage. That hardly is the same as quoting 'texts' from a long dead nation any more than the Flood story proves that Genesis had to have been written about 2,000 BCE.
Quote:
Daniel as a written work existed prior to the 4th Century BCE, since Daniel is quoted in the Mishnah and other texts. In fact there is a discussion about whether the Aramaic part of the texts in Daniel are "clean" and able to be read without engaging in special sacrifices and rituals.
There are several other rabbinical texts from the 4th Century that mention the text of Daniel, but do not quote Daniel, so we know it existed as early as the 4th Century BCE.
That would certainly be a factor to consider. Perhaps you could give a reference and link so I can check. 4th BCE would certainly be earlier than I would like and it seems to conflict with the book of Daniel which must date from the last event of Seleucid history described.
"Another foray against Egypt and his forced withdrawal by intervention of ships from 'Kittim' (Cyprus). In 167 B.C., he despoiled Jerusalem again. It was was this 'the abomination of desolation' - the setting up of a pagan statue in the Jerusalem temple - that led to the Maccabean war."
41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown; but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries; and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him; and he shall go forth with great fury to destroy and utterly to sweep away many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
These verses envisage, the defeat of Antiochus. He was defeated, but I am not certain whether this is a very poetic report of the revolt or a hope for it. In any case, it dated Daniel to c. 167 B.C. not 530 B.C .
"At the time of the end the king of the south (Ptolemy) shall attack him (Antiochus); but the king of the north (Antiochus) shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through."
Not fulfilled. Ptolemy did not attack Antiochus.
He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall follow in his train. But tidings from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go forth with great fury to exterminate and utterly destroy many. And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him. At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." (Daniel Chapter 11 verse 40)
The rest of the 'prophecy' cannot be matched with history, so is not prophetic history but prophetic guesswork.
What actually occurred was the maccabean revolt and the expulsion of Seleucid rule from Judea. Why Daniel was allowed to remain in scripture when the latter parts of the prophecy never turned out that way is more than I can explain. I have tried to find the Jewish view (The Christian one sems to be attempts to match bits to later history and what doesn't fit is considered not have come about yet.)
I shall look into the Daniel reference. Mind, if it is mentioned in the 4th c. that just leaves the reference to the causeway of Tyre to date the Tyre prophecy to Alexander's attack - unless it's really prophecy, that is!
I don't see how Daniel could have existed in present from at least just before 167 BCE. But I can't ignore evidence.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-26-2010 at 01:40 PM..
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