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Old 09-24-2010, 08:24 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,605,914 times
Reputation: 6790

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Actually....Gplex is making a very valid point...who gets to decide when speech is free and when it is not???? This is a very slippery slope.
What this makes me think is my post wasn't as clear as I thought. If that's so I admit to being a tad perplexed. I thought

"Although I'd agree there are some things more important than an individuals feelings so there are times disrespect can be warranted."

"Also I was not necessarily even speaking of repression. Certainly not of any group being given the power of repression. What I mean is there are rare times where the emotional harm to a believer, by harsh criticism or even disrespect, is justified by the harm their belief does."

I guess I thought this was clear enough. That I'm talking about when I think it's okay to get harsh with person, not when I think it's okay to ban what they say.

So okay I'll try this again and if that doesn't work I will just throw up my hands.

I think you can sometimes make judgments on beliefs. Not for the purpose of banning them, but for the purpose of knowing when a vigorous response is more acceptable. I usually try to go with things I don't believe to make this clearer. So let's say a person believes the ghost of their dead dog wants them to plant trees. There is no evidence they believe it wants anything else and there is no escalation of what it believes the dog wants. Plus no laws are being broken. Now let's say another person believes the ghost of their dead dog wants them to vandalize Jewish cemeteries. To me it's clear one belief about a ghost dog is different than the other and needs to be treated more vigorously. You may say both delusions need to be eradicated, or maybe not, but if so I would disagree. If you said "there is no difference" I would say that's thickheaded.

Like I said yeah it's going to be a judgment call sometimes. If you can't make judgment calls then I don't know how you deal with life. In any event these examples do not involve banning any belief. The person can still believe in "Anti-Semitic ghost dog" as long as they don't act on its instructions. I just think it would be more understandable to judge that belief harsher.
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:42 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,676,816 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Actually....Gplex is making a very valid point...who gets to decide when speech is free and when it is not???? This is a very slippery slope.

I would love to see those Westboro idiots shut down for good...what they do is not only disrespectful but downright disgusting...but in actuality, they are doing nothing wrong by the law. They have the First Amendment right to say whatever it is they want to....even though their words have the power to hurt. I believe that they would have no power at all if everyone would just IGNORE THEM...but the media gives them the air time they crave. Let's face it, controversy makes great news and the bigger the controversy the more air time they are going to get. I see the media as a much bigger threat than any idiot out there running their mouth...because if they were ignored, they would go away.
Christy, it's only a "slippery slope" to "slippery" people. I understand Thoms point on this...the "Rude and Crude" know full well what they are doing. I sure know what I'm doing when I do it.

As far as "who gets to decide?"...I submit...we refer to that "most fair", "Democratic Republic" way of doing things--Put it to a vote and let the MAJORITY RULE. That way you satisfy the most people possible. Not perfect...but as "good" a way as it gets.

Nowadays with "touch-tone" telephone service and the internet...we could have "The People" vote on EVERYTHING. We didn't have the technology before...but we do now. If 100 million+ votes could be cast for American Idol contestants, we could have people vote their Social Security number for every Bill, Official, and issue imaginable. Cast your vote without going to a polling location. I bet you'd get 90%+ voter participation. TRUE...Government Of the People, By the People, and For the People!

So, in summation....Who/What decides? THE MAJORITY of the PEOPLE.
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Old 09-24-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,226,606 times
Reputation: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Christy, it's only a "slippery slope" to "slippery" people. I understand Thoms point on this...the "Rude and Crude" know full well what they are doing. I sure know what I'm doing when I do it.

As far as "who gets to decide?"...I submit...we refer to that "most fair", "Democratic Republic" way of doing things--Put it to a vote and let the MAJORITY RULE. That way you satisfy the most people possible. Not perfect...but as "good" a way as it gets.

Nowadays with "touch-tone" telephone service and the internet...we could have "The People" vote on EVERYTHING. We didn't have the technology before...but we do now. If 100 million+ votes could be cast for American Idol contestants, we could have people vote their Social Security number for every Bill, Official, and issue imaginable. Cast your vote without going to a polling location. I bet you'd get 90%+ voter participation. TRUE...Government Of the People, By the People, and For the People!

So, in summation....Who/What decides? THE MAJORITY of the PEOPLE.
That's a real nice fantasy....but we all know that's never going to happen. And I still truly believe that we cannot, even by a majority vote, put limits on anyones free speech....no matter how disgusting, disrespectful or disturbing it may be...we were in the dark ages once...I don't wish to go back there.

It's my feeling that if one doesn't want their views challenged or if one cannot take the heat of any debate properly without getting their feelings hurt...then they shouldn't be on a forum at all....for their views will be challenged because not everyone thinks alike. You are always going to encounter those who will "lose" their cool when the heat gets turned up....their rears will get a little roasty.....and then the venom will spew....it's happens all the time here on CD.

BTW....I know you are king when it comes to picking on the Athiests....but there are also many rude and crude Christians as well...I could name names...but I try hard not to be too snarky unless I'm pushed against a wall.
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Old 09-24-2010, 01:52 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,676,816 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
That's a real nice fantasy....but we all know that's never going to happen. And I still truly believe that we cannot, even by a majority vote, put limits on anyones free speech....no matter how disgusting, disrespectful or disturbing it may be...we were in the dark ages once...I don't wish to go back there.

It's my feeling that if one doesn't want their views challenged or if one cannot take the heat of any debate properly without getting their feelings hurt...then they shouldn't be on a forum at all....for their views will be challenged because not everyone thinks alike. You are always going to encounter those who will "lose" their cool when the heat gets turned up....their rears will get a little roasty.....and then the venom will spew....it's happens all the time here on CD.

BTW....I know you are king when it comes to picking on the Athiests....but there are also many rude and crude Christians as well...I could name names...but I try hard not to be too snarky unless I'm pushed against a wall.
As usual...you make good points. And you're right...it's a one in a million shot that it's going to ever happen...and it's merit certainly debatable.

Free speech IS precious. But to how great an expense of others? Is there EVER a limit? Those Westboro Bap people being "poster children" on the issue.

As far as being "the king" of picking on the Atheists...I wouldn't give myself quite so much credit. MOF, I dig most of the Atheists and find them to be pretty cool...especially guys like rifleman that are soooooo brilliant and I've learned so much from...as well as guys like Rafius--he's given me so many laughs with his fantastic snarky wit, at times I feel like I've logged onto the Don Rickles Tribute Comedy Forum. The "picking" is just my way of "bringing out the best" in them. LOL!
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,232,801 times
Reputation: 5220
I'm so hurt that GldnRule didn't mention me.

"Majority rule" is a great concept, but it must not be allowed to become "tyranny of the majority". The minority's rights must be protected.

I regard the Westboro idiots as nearly akin to yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater; in other words, free speech has its limits. Spouting their rubbish at veterans' funerals is a violation of the mourners' rights. The idiots have a right to promote their appalling worldview, but not there.

The concept of "relative freedom", which gives one rights as long as they don't intrude on the rights of others, seems to be lost in the general selfishness.
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,226,606 times
Reputation: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
As usual...you make good points. And you're right...it's a one in a million shot that it's going to ever happen...and it's merit certainly debatable.

Free speech IS precious. But to how great an expense of others? Is there EVER a limit? Those Westboro Bap people being "poster children" on the issue.

As far as being "the king" of picking on the Atheists...I wouldn't give myself quite so much credit. MOF, I dig most of the Atheists and find them to be pretty cool...especially guys like rifleman that are soooooo brilliant and I've learned so much from...as well as guys like Rafius--he's given me so many laughs with his fantastic snarky wit, at times I feel like I've logged onto the Don Rickles Tribute Comedy Forum. The "picking" is just my way of "bringing out the best" in them. LOL!
As much as I despise those Westboro idiots...it still comes down to...who decides? Who decides what is good speech and what is bad speech....like I said, it's a very slippery slope. I certainly wouldn't ever want to see my right to free speech hindered in any way.

I know...deep down you're a good guy underneath all your snark!!
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,192 posts, read 25,225,092 times
Reputation: 22276
Personally, I think the country, nay, the world would be a better place if I was the one to decide what is acceptable and what is not! I don't trust the majority. They can be intolerant and prejudiced. The only one I trust is myself! Hee hee!
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,631,373 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
So, in summation....Who/What decides? THE MAJORITY of the PEOPLE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
"Majority rule" is a great concept, but it must not be allowed to become "tyranny of the majority". The minority's rights must be protected.
Majority rule is a terrible concept. Rule of law under the U.S. constitution is a great concept.
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Old 09-24-2010, 04:54 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,676,816 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I'm so hurt that GldnRule didn't mention me.

"Majority rule" is a great concept, but it must not be allowed to become "tyranny of the majority". The minority's rights must be protected.

I regard the Westboro idiots as nearly akin to yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater; in other words, free speech has its limits. Spouting their rubbish at veterans' funerals is a violation of the mourners' rights. The idiots have a right to promote their appalling worldview, but not there.

The concept of "relative freedom", which gives one rights as long as they don't intrude on the rights of others, seems to be lost in the general selfishness.
You know catman..I'm actually a big fan of yours...and I think I've told you that before. You are the Moderate in Chief on this board. You always put forth well written arguments that view from both sides, and the middle too.

You are as comfortable in the "sacred circle" as you are in the thick of Fundie mudslinging.

But then, I like, and get along, with just about everybody I've ever come in contact with in my life. I am only short on love for the truly cruel and evil.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:10 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,676,816 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
Personally, I think the country, nay, the world would be a better place if I was the one to decide what is acceptable and what is not! I don't trust the majority. They can be intolerant and prejudiced. The only one I trust is myself! Hee hee!
YES!!!! THAT'S the solution! Dewdrop as WORRRRRRRLD QUEEEEEEEN!!!!!!

"Heatherism" as the "Rule of Law".

The world as a "Meanness Free Zone"!
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