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Old 09-12-2010, 03:59 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,664,692 times
Reputation: 5927

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Yes, all that. I have tried and continue to try respect (which is not the same as feigning to agree with illogic and unfounded belief). I encourage thoughtful and open - minded posting and try to explain my views. What I too often get from the other side is contempt for logic and evidence and a squeal of 'how dare you' when that is pointed out.

The common ground is and must be a respect for logical and evidence - based discussion. But the problem there is that it isn't what supports Faith, which is the essential basis of Theism.

In the end the only respect I ask for is respect for logic and evidence. I don't ask it for me. I don't care if a theist interlards his or her post with abuse so long as there is a willingness to listen and discuss seriously and take sound argument on board. But what we get is either a polite ingnoring of the 'disproofs' that are do often demanded of us, or a lot of abuse without the listening.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:32 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 4,162,629 times
Reputation: 592
Respect does not mean zero criticism.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:19 AM
 
Location: Here&There
2,209 posts, read 4,221,485 times
Reputation: 2438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Respect does not mean zero criticism.
Unfortunately that's what most people think. And to the OP, nice gesture but there are no common ground that I can think of.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Ohio
2,175 posts, read 9,165,162 times
Reputation: 3962
We all breath air.
We all have red blood pumping through our veins.
We all feel pain, love, sorrow, fear, optimism and pessimisn. (SP?)
We all want a better future.
We all take in food and water and expell the waste. We are all human.
We all have morals and decency or we do not. Those are individual qualities no matter what the belief.
We all have the right to our own beliefs and convictions.
It is when we forget those rights and individuals want to attack anyone that doesn't believe the same as them that things get nasty.
Personaly, I believe in God and that he will judge me as to whether I spend eternity in heaven or hell.
Others don't. That is their right. What I judge people on is their everyday human actions of good or bad.
If their beliefs aren't the same as mine, that isn't a cause for me to hate.
We will all know who is right eventually.
I think I am. They think they are.
That is our rights as humans to have our own beliefs. I have met people who don't believe in religion that were model citizens and a credit to society.
I have met people who did believe that turned out to be the scum of the earth.
So whatever you believe doesn't make you good or bad as a person on this earth.
What you do, and how you live, peaceful or violent, determines your legacy.
The final judgement is what happens when earthly lfe is over.
I'll stick with my beliefs. That is my right.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:45 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,640,124 times
Reputation: 1350
It's guys like H. L. Mencken that mess up any opportunity for "peace".

Referring to the viewpoint of others as..."imbecilities" and "superstition"...and calling for people, "not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous"...and, "their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame"...is indicative of what kind of a person he is.

They've got a name for people that talk like Mencken. He's no different than Fred Phelps and the Westboro Bap Crew...except he's arguing from the "other side". But the attitude is the same.

Empirical proof and objective evidence has no more merit than intuition and perception...MOF from a "practical application" and "real life usefulness" standpoint--Intuition & Perception smokes Pure Logic & Reason. Neither should have any favor over the other in the "respect" department.

The "Common Ground"...is that each of us holds a viewpoint that is ultimately unique...and THAT is what needs to be "respected"...both the person and the viewpoint. Anything less is demonstrative of bias and intolerance. State your viewpoint...with firm conviction, even...without insult or mock of the differing viewpoint, or the person for holding it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:30 AM
 
5,458 posts, read 6,709,864 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
What better on 9/11 than a, "Why Can't We all Just Get Along and Show Each Other Love & Respect?" post?!

It's a very nice concept PITT2SARA, but not likely to happen.

It seems people can not simply state their opinion without getting "mean and nasty".
You mean like posters who intentionally grate on other groups with their writing - and then admit to it?

//www.city-data.com/forum/15460278-post20.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I posted many times... admittedly in a style so as to "sprinkle sand down the collar" of the Atheists...
Interesting that poster is complaining that other writers do the same thing.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,531,014 times
Reputation: 16453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
...is earned.

...is a hard thing to swallow. Frequently it disproves religious beliefs, and many people are incapable of accepting that.

...is also earned.

...religious fanatics don't want peace. They want their god to ruthlessly smite us non-believers.

If someone is sensitive enough to get butthurt over anonymous comments on an internet discussion forum, they've got issues. I think that a forum like this is absolutely the place to be brutally honest with someone else, and tell them what you think about their ideas. Otherwise, they go through life with everyone being polite to them, afraid to hurt their feelings, and not being told how ridiculous they are.

I say, grow a pair or don't post on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post

For myself, I see no reason whatsoever to "respect" what someone believes. I respect their right to hold the belief. I am under no obligation to respect the belief they hold. Again, I call on the master......

"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy."
-- H L Mencken,
It seems that there will never be common ground/peace or any real discssion judging from from these quotes.

IMO many atheists on this and other boards are only interested in calling theists idiots for reasons only known to the individual. Perhaps it helps them to feel more sure of themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
In the end the only respect I ask for is respect for logic and evidence. I don't ask it for me. I don't care if a theist interlards his or her post with abuse so long as there is a willingness to listen and discuss seriously and take sound argument on board. But what we get is either a polite ingnoring of the 'disproofs' that are do often demanded of us, or a lot of abuse without the listening.
I do see frustration from some atheists when their careful attempt at logic fails to convince the theist that; that which they experienced was never so. Bear in mind that logic only holds true if the premise is correct.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:57 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,664,692 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I do see frustration from some atheists when their careful attempt at logic fails to convince the theist that; that which they experienced was never so. Bear in mind that logic only holds true if the premise is correct.
You see what isn't there. The frustration comes from such misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what we say. I don't say that what they experienced was 'never so' but that there might be other explanations for what they experienced than the one explanation they happen to favour and which, therefore, of course has to be the true one.

Logic only holds true if the premise is correct. And how do we know it is correct? Through validation by logic and evidence, not by faith. Therefore all theism is logically invalid because it is based on an unsubstantiated premise (God's reality).

I do hope that you will take these points on board and not add to our frustration .
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,841,150 times
Reputation: 2881
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
You mean like posters who intentionally grate on other groups with their writing - and then admit to it?

//www.city-data.com/forum/15460278-post20.html



Interesting that poster is complaining that other writers do the same thing.
Well ya sure got caught there Gldnrain!!
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
4,348 posts, read 7,350,753 times
Reputation: 7276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
...is earned.

...is a hard thing to swallow. Frequently it disproves religious beliefs, and many people are incapable of accepting that.

...is also earned.

...religious fanatics don't want peace. They want their god to ruthlessly smite us non-believers.

If someone is sensitive enough to get butthurt over anonymous comments on an internet discussion forum, they've got issues. I think that a forum like this is absolutely the place to be brutally honest with someone else, and tell them what you think about their ideas. Otherwise, they go through life with everyone being polite to them, afraid to hurt their feelings, and not being told how ridiculous they are.

I say, grow a pair or don't post on the internet.
I like the direct way you broke this down, and I agree with each comment. I have often viewed the indignation expressed by many christians on the forum as less than sincere. They like to raise a fuss, and if they can’t do it on this forum, they will shift to the A&A forum. The one thing I am sure is the years of abuse and discrimination have given Atheist thick skins, and christian myths, or words don’t even cause a flinch anymore.
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