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This free speech topic is so good. I heard something about free speech I won't soon forget. You all might enjoy it too.
Noam Chomsky was criticized in the press quite a bit a few years ago, because he "stuck up for" a Nazi-sympathizer, thus he didn't believe the Holocaust ever happened, was an anti-Semite, etc. etc.
I heard him speak to this. He didn't "defend" himself. He explained where those ideas came from.
Turns out that there was a professor at some university who had spoken out, saying that the Holocaust had never occurred.
Noam Chomsky was defending not this idea, but the man's right to express this idea.
In other words, he was defending the man's free speech, his rights to express whatever he wishes to express.
Many of those who were calling Chomsky an anti-Semite were liberal folks! Liberal democrats. Who were offended by the idea of the Jewish people's plight having been belittled by the professor in question.
Chomsky looked right at one of the young men who were protesting his defense of the professor, and said, "Free speech is not only for those whom you agree with. If you believe in free speech, you believe in the right of people to say the most hateful, vile thing you can imagine. If you support the right to free speech even when you are horrified by what has been said, only then can you really say you support free speech." (I'm paraphrasing, this is from memory.)
He then went on to say, "Pinochet supported free speech when it supported his regime. So did Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Kim Jong IL, etc."
Such an excellent point! But people are still there saying he's an Anti-Semite, and they really and truly don't get where he was coming from. I loved this story, and it reminded me how careful we have to be regarding whom we defend and why
He has a definite point; people only support freedom of speech when it supports what they already believe. The Religious Right and censorship is a good example. Tipper Gore and the PMRC is another (from the "liberal" side).
As for liberals bemoaning Chomsky; well, let's face it once and for all, shall we: you simply cannot say anything even remotely negative about Jewish culture or religion without being labeled an anti-semite - even if what you say is true. The Holocaust was a horrible event, but that does not mean that as whole, they get automatic immunity from criticism. In case you haven't noticed, millions upon millions of other human beings have met their demise under the guise of racial cleansing, too. Let's not forget about the Muslims in Bosnia. Oh wait, they were Muslims. So I guess that they do not count
As for Chomsky, I am a long time fan of his writings and thought. Even though he cracked the language code, most of ideas fall into the realm philosophy. Most of what he says easily goes well over the average person's head without the use of a thesaurus. Forget about three-dollar words, the guy uses ten-dollar words on a regular basis.
Agreed! Also, just to be clear and reiterate, Chomsky did not say anything negative about Jewish people, and did state he found it offensive to even consider the idea that the Holocaust never occurred. Still he defended the guy's right to do it!
Agreed! Also, just to be clear and reiterate, Chomsky did not say anything negative about Jewish people, and did state he found it offensive to even consider the idea that the Holocaust never occurred. Still he defended the guy's right to do it!
Was the person that he was defending simply stating his beliefs or was he teaching it as fact? As much as it makes me cringe in pain and frustration to hear people deny the Holocaust - yes, that is their right. However, they should not be allowed to teach their erroneous belief in schools or colleges. Erroneous beliefs should not be passed off as factual information.
But I agree with defending the right of free speech for all - even if it makes me want to punch someone in the face!
For the record - I've never punched someone in the face!
What Common Ground; Can Be Found, Between Religious And Non-Religious Posters?
If God were real, we can all agree that he is not from Earth. We can also agree that God lives in the sky. By definition, this would make God an alien. For me, I think it is silly that we made deities out of ancient alien visitors. IMO, religious worship is the biggest mistake of all recorded human history. Simply put. Aliens visited, we made "Gods" out of them, they (the aliens) freaked out at our reaction and left (never to return again until we wised-up as a species).
Even today, people are willing to die for their "God". A "God" that supposedly told us all that we don't have to die for anything (or anyone). It seems to me that many theists don't even know how to follow their own God's example and message to humanity.
I've just read through this entire thread and I have to say that for the most part everyone was civil and tolerant. That's truley a breath of fresh air for CD. Thank you for this thread. There may be hope after all. We don't all have to believe the same things but tolerance can go a long way. You don't have to respect someone else's beliefs but tolerating their view point doesn't make you less of a person.
Beliefs don't deserve respect, because they are beliefs...
You missed my point.....I want the rep. I gave you erased...LOL..I said NO SUCH THING.....I said respect their right to state their beliefs...I never said you must respect the beliefs themselves....PLEASE read the thread in it's entirety before deciding my position/intent.
I said, "Props to PITTS2SARA for promoting tolerance and respect...even toward different points of view".
Note the mention of "TOLERANCE" and "RESPECT".
Being tolerant and respectful would preclude: Stoning people because they are gay (or because they are not), wife beating (or husband beating), taking away equality, slaughtering a group of people, or being raciest/sexist/bigoted.
If people were tolerant, and showed each other respect...they wouldn't do ANY of those things.
You may not see the wisdom in PITTS2SARAs OP, but there's plenty there...and AGAIN, I applaud his effort to expound upon the virtue of people interacting peacefully and respectfully.
MOF...I can't see how anyone could find what he had to say as anything but positive and sensible.
Thankyou again.....that was extremely thoughtful and very perceptive of you. We are seeing, in this thread, attempts at semantics/rhetoric, this is sabotaging the spirit and intent of my thread and exposing some people who sometimes just want to argue.
Being "tolerant" doesn't mean you can't be "bigoted" also. I don't mess with them, and they don't mess with me...that's tolerance. I still don't agree, but there's a difference between saying "I don't agree with your choice." and saying "You're WRONG...and, by the way, I hate you."
LOL......being an openly gay male in real life and in this forum...I can assure YOU I am far more qualified in my knowledge of prejudices, than you are and I know all about bigots....the forum and life are chock full of them.
My intent, even if I hate their guts more than they hate mine; is to still leave the lines of communication open, for I have managed in this forum to make many friends and change many minds.
To do that there MUST still be some form of respect and tolerance. Don't misunderstand me...I hate those WestBoro "people" more than most; but as others have said...free speech. That's the point, eventually people see them for the evil people they truly are. If I respond to bigots with the same hate they show me...I lose them. IF I let them talk etc...then usually they too will listen to me and IF I can change even one bigoted mind about Gay people then I have done well and made it easier for subsequent generations.
If I let the bigots/evil people still talk.....I keep the high ground and expose them by allowing them to display their illogical hatred and thought processes for the world to see.
I also have gotten apologies from even zealous religious forum members who now realize being gay is not a choice and "we" are just like them and no threat. I just want the same things everyone else does and to live in peace. Without common ground...there is no sense to living...we will all annihilate one another and nobody wins a "game" where there can be no winner or loser to begin with. The human race either prospers as one or we all die as one...the choice is OURS!.
Interesting user name, 5150. There are some atheist who post things such as Why do you believe in fairy tales? How can you be so ignorant! that are attacks. You need to keep in mind that this is an attitude that is attributed to character, not atheism. Many people of Faith have that same attitude as well. Call it a defect of character. That holier than thou attitude comes in many flavors, not one particular group has cornered the market on it.
Now, as an atheist, I can point some things out: I would love, and want, to have a reasonable, mature, conversation with Believers. That only happens with long time friends who are Christians or Catholics (i.e., I have known them since childhood or have known them since high school). With everyone else, the conversation inevitably takes one or two paths; that I am somehow missing out on the 'big picture', or that I was sent by God, Satan, etc. to 'test their faith'.*
Atheism is not simply about not believing that God(s-desses) do not exist, nor any sort of afterlife; they also believe that human beings are more than capable of being good and just without religion. Such a concept gets lost in translation, as they say. It is frustrating to no end. So, some atheist post on here to simply vent.
*Even though atheist don't believe in the here-after, I am sure that if Jesus, or God, made their presence known, most (if not all) atheist would say that you guys were right and join the party (yeah, yeah, I know, it doesn't work that way. When Jesus makes his return, everyone who has a change of mind and heart are still screwed. Pyrric victory, gotta love it.).
Very few Christians would admit that they would ditch their faith if it was proven that God does not exist. To them, such a question is a test of their faith, and to answer yes is betrayal.
**You know, the human mind is capable of believing what-ever it wants to believe in order to make sense out of things. Some call it coping, others cognitive dissonance. But check this out: humans, as a whole, are a pretty whacky group of animals. I'll use three examples:
1. If those who were responsible for the assassination of JFK finally came forward and offered numerous facts about the whats, whys and hows of it all-there would be a portion of the population that says Yes, I knew it all along! There would also be some who say Huh, so that is what happened, but yet, there will still be a group of people who will call the whole thing b*llsh*t.
2. If Jesus, or God, decided to make a physical appearance and announce to the world that they're here, there will be portion of the population who says Yes, see, I knew it! We were right all along! Others will say Well, fry my legs and call them drumsticks, I guess you were right all along! Still, there will be others -including Christians-who call b*llsh*t on the whole event.
3. I believe in the possibility of life on other planets in the Universe. I do not believe that Earth has been visited by E.T.s. While I have seen a handful of strange flying objects, to me, that is not proof that aliens exist or even that these objects originated off this planet. Unless one zaps me up and takes me on a joy-ride around the Universe, a strange object in the sky is just a strange object in the sky.
Logic is simply the rational conclusion that if A, then B. Humans have long since pondered the meaning of life, why are we here (A). Religion gives assurance that life on this planet is all part of a larger scheme (B). Humans have long since pondered the meaning of life, why are we here (A). Science tells us that it all started with a couple of molecules that, through a chemical process that took millions of years, bonded together in such a way that life was formed.
I agree with this 100%
Remain civil at all times. Even if the person that you are 'talking to' is being difficult, keep in mind that these forums are open to anyone on the Internet. 100s, perhaps 1000s of people will read your post. The real 'idiot' will be spotted and you will be remembered as the one having common decency.
As I posted in an old thread in the Science Forum, I honestly believe that humans are too ignorant and prideful to make any real progress as a planet. One tenant of religion is the battle between good and evil; us against them. Without evil, them, there is no longer a need for an us since good cannot exist without evil. While not true of all, I firmly believe that some Christians are constantly seeking out an enemy to fight (Burn a Quran Day, anyone?) in order to make themselves look like the good guys. Being a martyr without a purpose is rather pointless, ya know.
I tried .......but without trying and grasping hope....then there is no future...your mind is already made up.
This free speech topic is so good. I heard something about free speech I won't soon forget. You all might enjoy it too.
Noam Chomsky was criticized in the press quite a bit a few years ago, because he "stuck up for" a Nazi-sympathizer, thus he didn't believe the Holocaust ever happened, was an anti-Semite, etc. etc.
I heard him speak to this. He didn't "defend" himself. He explained where those ideas came from.
Turns out that there was a professor at some university who had spoken out, saying that the Holocaust had never occurred.
Noam Chomsky was defending not this idea, but the man's right to express this idea.
In other words, he was defending the man's free speech, his rights to express whatever he wishes to express.
Many of those who were calling Chomsky an anti-Semite were liberal folks! Liberal democrats. Who were offended by the idea of the Jewish people's plight having been belittled by the professor in question.
Chomsky looked right at one of the young men who were protesting his defense of the professor, and said, "Free speech is not only for those whom you agree with. If you believe in free speech, you believe in the right of people to say the most hateful, vile thing you can imagine. If you support the right to free speech even when you are horrified by what has been said, only then can you really say you support free speech." (I'm paraphrasing, this is from memory.)
He then went on to say, "Pinochet supported free speech when it supported his regime. So did Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Kim Jong IL, etc."
Such an excellent point! But people are still there saying he's an Anti-Semite, and they really and truly don't get where he was coming from. I loved this story, and it reminded me how careful we have to be regarding whom we defend and why
I do hold certain truths to be self evident, Noam Chomsky is a good bit brighter than most of his critics.
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