The War on Religion (Buddhist, myth, Mary, Apostle)

[Nea1]

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

Fer cryin' baby jesus, nobody here is saying that Catholicism is responsible for the holocaust.

What we ARE saying is that the Catholic church collaborated with them and didn't oppose them for several years, and that they should take responsibility for those evil actions perpetrated in the name of a supposedly loving god.

Yea I don't get it, it is a fact and a well known one that they collaborated and did nothing to stop or even oppose them, the information is everywhere. Hitler is the cause but the Catholic church played a part.

[helios666]

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

What is really sick is that people like helios will expose children to molesters in secular schools by under reporting the amount of abuse that continues there. CHILDREN ARE 100 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE MOLESTED IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL THAN A CATHOLIC SCHOOL. At one time there was a problem with homosexual priests molesting boys but now the molesters are 100 times more likely to be in secular schools, The media has cleaned up the Churches act so the homosexuals know to stay away from this organization. What this means is that children are in danger today- while molesters in public school can molest unchecked by the media. Do you see now the danger that this puts children in?

Moderator cut: deleted
However, your mention of stats are a point to argue because you can't compare on thing to another. Not to mention as far as underreporting; sorry, but that isn't something that has anything to do with secular or non- when something like this happens, it may or may not go reported for various reasons, and a person's religion may or may not be the issue. I have no stats to back myself up in saying this, but I tend to think that the more religious the family of the victim, the less likely they are to report or tell anyone because of the guilt factor. Something religion (and not just catholic) is famous for instilling into the members of their religion.

Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill

You are misquoting the statistics, and also comparing apples to oranges.

The article says there are 100 times as many cases of molestation in public schools than by priest, not than in a public school.

The reason that is an apples-to-oranges comparison is that most of the molestation in a public school likely comes from other students.

So to be a fair analogy, you would have to count not only the priest, but also the rest of the parishioners.

Agreed. His defense is SO absurd...let's say you're defending college Fraternities with regard to hazing and resulting dangers. Samyn would say: "well, there are WAY more fatalities and injuries in colleges who do not have fraternities, therefore fraternities and the hazing they do is perfectly fine." Just because there may be more molestations within public schools does NOT mean that the catholic church and their custom of having sexually repressed/disturbed individuals running the show is NOT a problem. And of course it stands to reason that no doubt there are more incidences of molestation within public schools because THERE ARE WAY MORE PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAN CATHOLIC/PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS! A

And besides- does it really matter?! Molestation happens everywhere and it needs to stop. I would not, and DO NOT defend any school or any organization that has a policy that is conducive to molestation, and it's a shame you, Samyn, do. Public schools don't have any peculiar setting that lend itself to being rife for molestation other than the fact that there are children and adults there- which is ANYWHERE that exist children and adults together- or even children and other children. As far as parochial schools- if the teachers are all nuns- the kids are safe- safer than public schools, no doubt. Because nuns are as harmless as you can get, so no problem there. But I don't think it's like the olden days- there are many males who teach nowadays. However, the real problems lie within the church and between priests and alter boys and so forth- so it's more the catholic church than their schools.

But bottom line- all I am, and have really been arguing is that your beloved catholic church has some Moderator cut: deleted politics and traditions. If you can't see that having celibate clergy members, among other things, is NOT healthy for anyone involved within said church, and want to ignore the facts in order to keep defending your church- have at it. Moderator cut: deleted

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

What is sick about spotting a huge bias? Why continuously report on things that happened decades ago while a huge and pressing danger is with us today? The truth is that you or the media don't care about kids; the hidden agenda -this is some real gnostic dualism- is all about stamping out the last bastion of morality in the western world.

It's not about a "bias". It's about addressing issues- ones that people like you are refusing to do. And it's weird that you actually are trying to connect the fact that people are taking issue with some of the problems within the catholic church, and assuming that those who are taking said issue do NOT care about children. How did you even arrive at that conclusion? Not by using any logic, that is for sure. Your turning an issue literally inside out and round about, and you aren't making any sense whatsoever.

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

If a gang went out and robbed 10,000 banks a year and continued to rob 10,000 banks a year to this very day don't you think we should hear about that? Wouldn't you be mad if your loved one was shot and killed? Why are we only hearing about bank robberies from the 1960s and 1970s while our children are in danger right now in secular schools where the molestation rate is higher than Catholic schools?

Moderator cut: deleted Since when does the news, or any media outlet harp on "old news" like you're saying they do? Um, the whole PURPOSE for news is that it is NEWS! And it's no accident the word has NEW right in it, which means it's about CURRENT events... Seriously- turn off your PTL channel and have a glance into the real world.

Moderator cut: deleted/rude

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

It is moral truth that gives Catholics such a stranglehold over reason. Irrationality lies in ignoring these basic truths that the Church is based on. The irony in man is that faith in one mystical truth solidifies rationality in all other areas. This is the rock of Greek philosophy, Hebrew faith and Roman law. There is virtual warehouse of human reason in those three cultures that the Catholic Church matured from.

I cannot even begin to comment on that. But wanted to include in case any of you missed it... Wow!

And with that- I think I'm probably finished here. Cheers.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by helios666

Moderator cut: Orphaned

Yeah, we know you hate the Catholic Church. Thanks for reminding us again.

You appear to object to celibacy as "unnatural" and a male priesthood as "sexist." I can see it really gets up your nose. Well, I have news for you: there are real differences between men and women (gender is innate, not "socially conditioned."). The Catholic Church recognizes this. You can wish for all human beings to blend into androgynous creatures and even strive become one of those "divine androgynes" yourself, but please stop imposing your Gnostic occult ideas about human sexuality on everyone else. It's extremely oppressive to those of us who value freedom of religion.

[samyn on the green]

Every one of the examples and points presented are not only true but supported in fact. When 100 times more molestation happens in public schools than Catholic schools but the public schools never gets reported this is clear proof that there is a war on religion. We could go down the line but why bother Not one of your ad hominem assertions are based in fact.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Not only is it a war on an institution but primarily this is a war on you and me. It is ideological subversion which is the highest form of warfare. Not only does the media wage war on the people but it is clear that they even have people following the media's lead and joyfully attacking us in the Church like in this thread. Not one of the anti-Catholic message board commandos has provided any facts that the Church is an inherently evil place- are there sinners that are part of the Church yes but history has shown that it is been a bastion of morality and learning. Like all attacks on the Church it is based on propaganda and misunderstanding and feeds on outright hate. Any response must be based on fact. Please discontinue your ad hominem attacks; it is not part of the TOS to attack other posters like this. You must represent facts.

Originally Posted by helios666

Do me a favor- re-read the part that I put in bold letters. Are you actually saying that I UNDER REPORT the amount of abuse that continues within secular schools??? That's a pretty bold and screwed up accusation, not to mention a dopey one with absolutely no validity whatsoever. If it wasn't such a ridiculous thing to say I might take offense that you were getting personal with me, and literally accusing me of putting children in harms way. But I don't even really know how to address your point because you didn't really make one other than trying to avoid the issue at hand by pointing a finger at me via nonsense.

However, your mention of stats are a point to argue because you can't compare on thing to another. Not to mention as far as underreporting; sorry, but that isn't something that has anything to do with secular or non- when something like this happens, it may or may not go reported for various reasons, and a person's religion may or may not be the issue. I have no stats to back myself up in saying this, but I tend to think that the more religious the family of the victim, the less likely they are to report or tell anyone because of the guilt factor. Something religion (and not just catholic) is famous for instilling into the members of their religion.



Agreed. His defense is SO absurd...let's say you're defending college Fraternities with regard to hazing and resulting dangers. Samyn would say: "well, there are WAY more fatalities and injuries in colleges who do not have fraternities, therefore fraternities and the hazing they do is perfectly fine." Just because there may be more molestations within public schools does NOT mean that the catholic church and their custom of having sexually repressed/disturbed individuals running the show is NOT a problem. And of course it stands to reason that no doubt there are more incidences of molestation within public schools because THERE ARE WAY MORE PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAN CATHOLIC/PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS! A

And besides- does it really matter?! Molestation happens everywhere and it needs to stop. I would not, and DO NOT defend any school or any organization that has a policy that is conducive to molestation, and it's a shame you, Samyn, do. Public schools don't have any peculiar setting that lend itself to being rife for molestation other than the fact that there are children and adults there- which is ANYWHERE that exist children and adults together- or even children and other children. As far as parochial schools- if the teachers are all nuns- the kids are safe- safer than public schools, no doubt. Because nuns are as harmless as you can get, so no problem there. But I don't think it's like the olden days- there are many males who teach nowadays. However, the real problems lie within the church and between priests and alter boys and so forth- so it's more the catholic church than their schools.

But bottom line- all I am, and have really been arguing is that your beloved catholic church has some bass-ackwards politics and traditions. If you can't see that having celibate clergy members, among other things, is NOT healthy for anyone involved within said church, and want to ignore the facts in order to keep defending your church- have at it. You are obviously blind and will remain that way, just like the church itself. You are the "perfect" member of the catholic church- brainwashed and obedient to the nth degree, just like they want...



It's not about a "bias". It's about addressing issues- ones that people like you are refusing to do. And it's weird that you actually are trying to connect the fact that people are taking issue with some of the problems within the catholic church, and assuming that those who are taking said issue do NOT care about children. How did you even arrive at that conclusion? Not by using any logic, that is for sure. Your turning an issue literally inside out and round about, and you aren't making any sense whatsoever.




Again- you must *really* be out of the loop, or just live under a rock. Since when does the news, or any media outlet harp on "old news" like you're saying they do? Um, the whole PURPOSE for news is that it is NEWS! And it's no accident the word has NEW right in it, which means it's about CURRENT events... Seriously- turn off your PTL channel and have a glance into the real world.

And btw, please, STOP talking about children as if you care about them. You obviously do NOT. Otherwise, you wouldn't be pointing fingers left and right- you would be doing ANYTHING you could to understand ANY of the dangers children face- within secular and non as you like to say- because dangers lie EVERYWHERE for the children of this world. Instead of bouncing around accusations and defending your precious "institution", why don't you just defend what matters, which is CHILDREN and people. If anyone lacks care for them it is YOU, so worried about blaming the 'secular' world. Well, look into your 'non-secular' mirror for a moment and ask yourself where your real priorities lie.



I cannot even begin to comment on that. But wanted to include in case any of you missed it... Wow!

And with that- I think I'm probably finished here. Cheers.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

Every one of the examples and points presented are not only true but supported in fact. When 100 times more molestation happens in public schools than Catholic schools but the public schools never gets reported this is clear proof that there is a war on religion. We could go down the line but why bother Not one of your ad hominem assertions are based in fact.


Not only is it a war on an institution but primarily this is a war on you and me. It is ideological subversion which is the highest form of warfare. Not only does the media wage war on the people but it is clear that they even have people following the media's lead and joyfully attacking us in the Church like in this thread. Not one of the anti-Catholic message board commandos has provided any facts that the Church is an inherently evil place- are there sinners that are part of the Church yes but history has shown that it is been a bastion of morality and learning. Like all attacks on the Church it is based on propaganda and misunderstanding and feeds on outright hate. Any response must be based on fact. Please discontinue your ad hominem attacks; it is not part of the TOS to attack other posters like this. You must represent facts.

Keep in mind you are dealing with an individual who admits she despises the Catholic Church and has called devout Catholics "brainwashed." She doesn't even understand basic Church doctrine.

She has shown that all her sanctimonious rhetoric and earnest pleas about what a good and caring person she is are nothing other than a front for her hatred of Catholicism. Next please.

[samyn on the green]

Are you saying that a thread on "war on religion" actually exposed those that are members of C-D and would like to make war on religion? Why do we bother to reason with these people? Their agenda is to destroy the Church and the morality that it supports. It seems that their main weapons are the ad hominem attack as agent of ideological subversion. Not only does these attacks occur in the media but the media attacks actually prompt these people to parrot them here at City-Data. Lucky we can plainly see what is driving the war and who is doing the attacks.

Sun Tzu from the "Art Of War"

All warfare is based on deception.

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Keep in mind you are dealing with an individual who admits she despises the Catholic Church and has called devout Catholics "brainwashed." She doesn't even understand basic Church doctrine.

She has shown that all her sanctimonious rhetoric and earnest pleas about what a good and caring person she is are nothing other than a front for her hatred of Catholicism. Next please.

[helios666]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Yeah, we know you hate the Catholic Church. Thanks for reminding us again.

You appear to object to celibacy as "unnatural" and a male priesthood as "sexist." I can see it really gets up your nose. Well, I have news for you: there are real differences between men and women (gender is innate, not "socially conditioned."). The Catholic Church recognizes this. You can wish for all human beings to blend into androgynous creatures and even become one of those creatures yourself, but please stop imposing your Gnostic occult ideas about human sexuality on everyone else. It's extremely oppressive to those of us who value freedom of religion.

Whoah! Thanks, again for putting more words in my mouth- not to mention in a pretty accusatory and derogatory manner. WITHOUT addressing ANY of the points I made with any degree of linear intellect.

You may be intelligent and have good command of the english language, but you lack the ability to comprehend my points as I state them, and as well the skill to address them sensibly and, again in a LINEAR fashion. You instead choose to make up stuff that I never even inferred- at a stretch, even, in an effort to circumvent what I have, several times already, outlined. But I will do it again, and I will not mince words so you cannot misunderstand, nor can you misquote/misrepresent me or my beliefs:

1. One particular issue I have with the catholic church is that they have a policy against women being elders/decision makers. With regard to that which is required from those who hold said appointed position, a person of either sex is as equally equipped to do the job as the other. So to keep one sex (female) from said position is SEXIST. That was my point, and only point.

~a. I understand full well the differences between men and women, and that women are different physically and emotionally than men. I have never made any allusions to believing that men and women are synonymous, nor that they are the same. For I know that they are not.

~b. Again- in case there is any confusion- I do not believe that said differences between the two sexes are any stumbling block for either sex to be involved within the catholic church as an elder, or on any level of authority. We're not talking about a manual labor job requiring heavy lifting or something that IS male dominated for a reason...

~c. I as well understand that there are "faith-based/dogma-based reasons for having only males undertake certain roles within the catholic church. And while I understand this, I do NOT agree with such beliefs, because said beliefs are based on OLD, and OUT OF TOUCH traditions- not on anything that is healthy in allowing spiritual growth. Again (sigh), I NEVER said that I do not understand the reasons, I just do NOT AGREE WITH THEM- nor do I think they are fair or reasonable within the parameters of spiritual evolution- nevemind just plain reason.

2. I also take issue with the expectation of celibacy from members of clergy/elders.

~a. Celibacy *is* an unnatural existence with the exception of a small percentage of people who are actually asexual. Yes, some people are in fact asexual, and so I can completely understand that those who are born this way might be drawn to something like priesthood- whose love is of a godly nature, not a carnal one.

~b. Because of the problems the church has had with consistent, and FREQUENT cases of molestation involving said "supposed" celibate priests, it is clear that the expectation of celibacy is one that would be best to be eliminated for the safety and health of society- not just catholics but everyone. Any child's strife or pain is the pain of EVERYONE.

~c. If someone HAS to be male, and HAS to be celibate to be a priest, that IS sexist, and unreasonable. Your church is imposing very strict, obsolete, and unreasonable expectations. Not to mention imposing that which has shown not to work. Period.

~d. The fact that the aforementioned rules are ABSOLUTE- with no attention to any deviations or allowances, is UNREASONABLE. And unhealthy. This is my problem with said "rule". (by the way I feel like a moron repeating myself this way, but some people just can't understand me unless I am this direct and curt and am sure to repeat my points...)

3. My "other" problem is that people like you keep defending the catholic church in a general, sweeping fashion, and continue to reverse and mirror all the points people make regarding the problems-rather than accepting, and addressing the many issues that, facts supporting, exist.

~a. One of these facts being the issue of pedophilia which affects children. This is HUGE- for me, anyway...based on some of your posts it seems that you personally understand this, dreaming spires, but really- you keep glossing it over and refusing to admit that there is a definite correlation between the traditions of having celibate priests and allowing them to be close to children/alter boys?!? What is the one common denominator here? (hint- it is NOT the child/alter boy...)

~b. I understand that irregardless of the 'practices' within the church that I'm talking about, catholicism is YOUR faith. That is fine, I accept and respect that, and I would hope others do too. My issues right here and now are with the PRACTICES that your church maintains, NOT with your faith.

~c. You keep defending your faith and dogma as if I was attacking it. Please refer to sub section "b", above, if there is any confusion.



5. What I know or do not know about all of the surely wonderful aspects of the catholic church isn't the issue. And that is because that wasn't the topic; I am merely responding to the topic YOU brought up, that there is a supposed "war" on religion (yours, specifically. I bet you don't care that there is a war on Islam, or any other religion because it doesn't affect you...).


In closing: The points I made were all with regard to said topic of the OP, and I made them all very clearly and concisely. And I know I defended my points well, and in a fair and LINEAR manner. Would you care to do the same, and address the points I made without the condescension and inferences? That would be nice.

I would like to highlight and respond to this:

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Please stop imposing your Gnostic occult ideas about human sexuality on everyone else. It's extremely oppressive to those of us who value freedom of religion.

\

Again...why do you KEEP MAKING STUFF UP?!? It is not only weird, but just sad. I am not "imposing" anything- much less that which you mentioned above. I was simply stating, in a very reasonable manner, why I feel the way I do, and backed myself up as well. I in NO WAY imposed my ideals about human sexualty upon anyone, in any manner. Again, please refer to the above outline that I made very simple and uncomplicated- just for you- in order that you may understand me and not create any fantasies out of thin air regarding what I do and do not believe.

The "freedom" of religion you mentioned- I support it, fully. I would never deny the right to anyone to practice what they want, and as well to belong to, and believe in any religion they like. You are, again, pulling out of thin air very peculiar delusions that, I suppose, are your way or ignoring what I'm saying- which AGAIN- is that I PERSONALLY do not like, and I disagree with many of the traditions/practices within the catholic church. And I should also mention that I have issues with ANY institution that is blind to that which would otherwise institute reason and fairness to ALL people, and without ANY bias to one's sex, religion, personal freedom, etc.. And that does NOT mean I am "oppressing" you, it's called "expressing myself". And that is NOT a war on you, or your religion...Is that SO hard to understand?!? Yeeeash!

[helios666]

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

Every one of the examples and points presented are not only true but supported in fact. When 100 times more molestation happens in public schools than Catholic schools but the public schools never gets reported this is clear proof that there is a war on religion. We could go down the line but why bother Not one of your ad hominem assertions are based in fact.


Not only is it a war on an institution but primarily this is a war on you and me. It is ideological subversion which is the highest form of warfare. Not only does the media wage war on the people but it is clear that they even have people following the media's lead and joyfully attacking us in the Church like in this thread. Not one of the anti-Catholic message board commandos has provided any facts that the Church is an inherently evil place- are there sinners that are part of the Church yes but history has shown that it is been a bastion of morality and learning. Like all attacks on the Church it is based on propaganda and misunderstanding and feeds on outright hate. Any response must be based on fact. Please discontinue your ad hominem attacks; it is not part of the TOS to attack other posters like this. You must represent facts.

Thank you for at least trying to be reasonable here and not being insulting again; I can respect that. What I do not understand, however, is why you are being so short-sighted with what is going on with the media; I do not disagree with the fact that we are a very media driven society, and that is VERY unhealthy. What I take issue with is that you feel very victimized and are taking things personally; as if the issues are directed at YOU and YOUR RELIGION. In believing that, you are not thinking wholly, nor fully about anyone extending beyond the confines of what YOU believe to be acceptable; and I say that because you keep referring to people/groups as 'secular and non-secular'. Why? If there is a problem or issue, it is EVERYONE'S issue. I no more support any "war" against catholocism than I do the current "war" that is going on with regard to the Musliims. What about them?! Or do they not matter simply because they do not believe as you do?!

With regard to that last sentence; I want to say that although just like I support your right to be catholic irregardless of the fact that I take issue with many of the practices of your church- I likewise support Muslims as people, and their beliefs irregardless of the fact that I TOTALLY disagree with many of the practices that their church maintains...Am I making sense?!?

Bottom line (and I SWEAR I gotta get off here after this! )- instead of taking such a great defense of the church/religion to which you love and adhere to, just perhaps take a moment to acknowledge the particular issues that some people have with your church, and try to separate yourself emotionally in order that you see that there are truths to some of those issues. As well there are myths and untruths- and they're worth defending- but separately, not as a whole. And it doesn't do any good to try to ignore the problems with one thing by pointing out the problems with something else- which it seems that you are doing.

The first step to unity within our societies and cultures is to take a good honest look at some of the traditions that are NOT working, and change them. And there are many- within umpteen cultures and religions- but all you, I, or anyone else can do is begin from within, and as well in forums such as this where we all are blessed enough to have a say- try to respectfully address, and acknowledge issues that we find ill-suited for cultural, societal and spiritual growth- and just hope that some people pay mind and might, as a result, do or act differently as a result. Cheers.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by helios666

Whoah! Thanks, again for putting more words in my mouth- not to mention in a pretty accusatory and derogatory manner. WITHOUT addressing ANY of the points I made with any degree of linear intellect.....

You are doing pretty well. Just bear in mind the lawyer who said 'If you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table. The expert rhetorical tactician knows very well that, where there is no defence, attack. 'You too', claiming bias and provoking anger so as to walk off is a supposed huff (with a drawn game ) is a very common tactic in theist apologetics.

[old_cold]

Did I miss it or did DS never divulge the name of the distinguished scholar?